scope advice - 223 - Target Work Mostly

[12many]

Hello All. Thanks for your advice on the CZ bolt in 223. I looked around and had been watching for the last several months and found one on gun broker with wood that I like. I am happy with the wood and the trigger is the set trigger so it will be nice and light for target work (good enough for me anyway). Thanks for everyone's help for my earlier response.





Next, is get see if it shoots so I need a scope.
60% range use for informal target shooting
25% plinking - set up targets at random distances and then attempt to hit target on first shot.
15% varmint shooting - same as above, but with furry critters, unless I can get them hold still at 100 yards.

Range will be from 50 to 300 yards. I have some questions and I need some advice.

Does this seem reasonable. My goal for shooting is (I think) to be able to use a range finder to get an accurate reading of yardage out to 300 yards. It is my understanding that most range finders work pretty well out to 300 yards.

I have thought a lot about different techiques and scopes such as duplex, BDC, Mildot . . . and what seems best to me is to first try to use the range from the range finder to then reference a chart showing clicks for that range and then adjust the scope turrets for that range, and then shoot. Out to 300 yards the number of clicks is not to many.

Thus, I am leaning away from the BDC and like the Mildot or duplex.

If I get the mildot it is something to learn and can then use it after practice/learning to range and holdover without having to adjust turrets.

I am new to this process. In the past, we just did hold over for deer or gophers. Does this plan seem like I am on the right track?

For a scope, I like the Monarch 4x-16x but was wondering if I would be better off with target turrets that better show click? Or there are some brands that have First focal plan retical, but I am not sure how important that is. I also understand that I am limited in objective size due to the bolt of the CZ 527.

My budget is about $400. There are so many scopes that it is very confusing. Given my use and plan, can you recommend any scopes?

Thanks.

 

[HOOfan_1]

FFP reticle really only matters if you are using the reticle for ranging or holding off target.

FFP will usually cost you.

I have a Bushnell Elite 4200 on my CZ 550, I love it. The Vortex PST scopes also seem nice.

 

[targetshooter22]

It depends on how you plan to shoot it. In my case, I have a 527 Varmint in 223, and put a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x on it with a large objective because my mission is mostly like yours, with informal target shooting being the primary mission. I wanted clear glass with low eye fatigue and a 1" tube because 300mm CZ rings are, IMO, abusively expensive. But I'm pretty sure there are a lot of scopes that fit this description; my Nikon and other Leupolds are also nice.

But if you want to run "longer" range stuff (say >300m) and get into ballistics, you might want to consider a scope like the SWFA fixed 6x or 10x. Those are made to be adjusted for range, and they work well (no hold over, adjust to range based on calculations).

 

[MtnCreek]

With a ~$400 budget, you might want to look to see if you can find someone with one of the Vortex 5-15 Midway specials. It's SFP and non-ill, if that makes a difference to you.

 

[cpt-t]

12many: You are going really like your CZ 527 in 223. I have been shooting one for several years and I think CZ Rifles are just great. I have been using Bushnell 4200 Elite`s a long time in 4x16x40, 6x24x40 or 8x32x40. And I prefer the Mil-Dot retical the most followed by a fine Duplex redical. I am 70 years old and I just have a hard time using the new reticals. They are just to busy for me to many lines to get use to and use very quickly. A good Range Finder is a great idea to help You learn to judge distances, but buy a good one. I also like the target styled turrets, I just don`t use them as much as I should. I find my self using the Mil-Dot redical more.
ken

 

[45crittergitter]

+1 for the Bushnell 4200 Elite. Mine's 4-16x.

 

[12many]

Thanks everyone. I will look at those options. Everyone likes Vortex these days. I always read about the Bushnell, but always considered that brand not that great. I guess they have different levels of stuff. I read and read how great the Elite line is so I will check it out. Surprised there is not much love for the Nikon, but may be it does not fit my needs. It is about $380 right now so the price seems good.

Do you think I need the large adjustable turrets? or are capped clickers ok?

 

[Coltdriver]

You should be able to get about a 225 yard point blank range with a 50 grain bullet.

I'd take a look at the Leupold Mark AR which has a .223 bullet drop compensating reticle. They are not that expensive. I have two of them and with my Ruger .223 it works great.

Also check your twist on your CZ. I have owned several CZ's, all fine rifles. But they were all slower than their American caliber cousins. If you have a 1 in 12 twist then 55 grains and under is the bullet weight you can use with good accuracy. Its all I use. Nothing wrong with that at all and frankly I always wondered why anyone would want to deal with the arc of a heavier .223 bullet.

I also found on my CZ's that medium rings were as low as I could get before I got interference with the bolt handle. So they will work great with a 50mm objective because medium rings is about as low as you can get with the larger bell.

 

[2ndtimer]

In that price range, I would look closely the Vortex Viper 6.5-20Xx44. A little over $400, but very clear optics and 30mm tube for additional elevation adjustment.

 

[MtnCreek]

Thanks everyone. I will look at those options. Everyone likes Vortex these days. I always read about the Bushnell, but always considered that brand not that great. I guess they have different levels of stuff. I read and read how great the Elite line is so I will check it out. Surprised there is not much love for the Nikon, but may be it does not fit my needs. It is about $380 right now so the price seems good.

Do you think I need the large adjustable turrets? or are capped clickers ok?

I have a Bush Elite Tac 3-12 that's a good scope w/ great features, but the price is a little more than you're looking at.

As far as turrets, they may or may not be usable. To adjust the turrets for come ups, they need to be accurate and have to be repeatable. If you're just going to be shooting to 300yds, a mildot ret will do fine, without the need to adjust the turrets. (Off memory, I'm at 1.3 mils up at 300). You should have enough in the reticle to get you to about 450 yds.

Fixed power like the SS 10x would be great for most of your needs, except the 15% varmint hunting. In that situation I would prefer something that would adjust down to a lower power (</=4x).

Edit: BTW, good looking wood on that rifle!

 

[ZGunner]

I personally have a 4-16 Nikon Monarch w/ MilDot reticle on my Savage .308. It is a fantastic scope! I zeroed it in and haven't had to touch it for for at least 500 rnds. Very clear picture and good in low light.

However, if you want to save a little bit I believe Mueller Optics is a steal. I have a silver 8.5-25x50 Eradicator on my 24" Rem 700 in .223. I got the demo model for $190. I'd venture to say the clarity rivals that of my Monarch. I read some very good things about Mueller before I bought and I will most definitely be adding more to my future rifle builds. Most of their scopes have 1" tubes and are available with MilDot. They currently have a 8-32x44 w/ MilDot for $200 if you want big power. It does however, come with a 30mm tube.

http://muelleroptics.com/category/products/mueller-scopes

 

[greyling22]

I have a similar gun: mini-mauser in 223. I"m currently running a budget sightron s1 hunter 4-12x40 on it. At the range I wish I had just a little more power. 14x maybe.

natchez has some interesting offers.

weaver grand slam 3-10 http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=WE800472

nikon monarch 4-16 http://www.natchezss.com/product.cf...B6C25C-88E8-5938-014F-838E7224457D&src=mbProd

buckmasters 4-14 http://www.natchezss.com/product.cf...B6C25C-88E8-5938-014F-838E7224457D&src=mbProd

that said, beware rear bell clearance with the bolt handle. typically leupold/redfield and weaver have the smallest rear bells. http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=WE849410&src=exrbSrch

 

[Cee Zee]

For target shooting. long range plinking and varmint shooting I like something with a lot of power and good glass that doesn't cost a fortune. Even on my rimfire target setup I use a Weaver T-36 and that's for shooting 50 yards. And I use nothing but target reticules. You can't shoot what you can't see and a lot of heavy reticules will block what you're trying to shoot especially at longer distances.

The better you can see your target the more like it is you will hit it. I don't use a scope like that on anything I might use as a hunting rifle but for what you describe I use them. I have the same Weaver on a Savage .223 which is mainly a plinking rifle or informal target shooting. I shoot 500 yards with that rifle and the scope sure helps bring the targets into view.

Yes it's harder to pick up a target with a scope that powerful but it can be done. And with practice it starts to become much easier.

 

[1911 guy]

I think Midway has some of the Bushnel Elite scopes on clearance or something still. I built an AR varmint gun and topped it with an Elite 3200 Midway was selling at the time for $199. I'd pass on it for a deer gun because the magnification is too high, but for a dedicated target or varmint gun, I think it works well.

ETA: For most loads from a .223 out to 300 yards, you won't need to adjust hardly at all. It does depend a bit on ring height and tube diameter, but 1/2" high at 100yd puts me barely low at 300. Nothing a touch of holdover won't cure. And I do mean a touch.

 

[12many]

Thanks everyone. I am still looking and considering.

I have been studying it more and all of you are right, to 300 yards, probably won't need the turrets much. I see I can stay within an 1 inch up and down out to 200 yards.

The one scope that is catching my eye is the Vortex HS-T 4-16 MOA (it has and MOA reticle and MOA clicks (1/4). When I was researching it, the MIL reticle and MOA adjustment was confusing to me and the more I read, I learned that the articles recommend having either MOA reticle and MOA adjustment OR MIL reticle and matching MIL adjustment. This make much more sense. The articles said if you like/think in metric, go for MIL but if you think in inches, go for the MOA. Same concept, just different units. MIL is most popular since metrics is more used worldwide and the military teaches/uses metric/mil.

I understand MOA pretty well and can easily figure out how much to adjust the scope up or down, for a distance. But with the MOAS reticle, at 100 yards, the first line up (or down) is two inches. Same right and left. At 200 yards, the first line up is 4 inches . . . At 50 yards, the first line up is 1 inch. that is pretty darn easy. Can be used for determining range too, and then just use the MOA clickers to move POI. This scope is a SFP scope so it only works on the highest magnification, but I think at 1/2 mag (8x) the values could be adjusted.

Anyway, for me and my brain, it is easy to understand MOA adjustment and MOA reticle and just inches for drop and adjustment.

I am going to keep looking though. I will be keeping it for a while so it has to be right. Also, don't know if I want to spend the $, but it is better to spend once and be happy. The Monarch by Nikon in 4x16 is about $200 less and I have had good luck with Nikon stuff in the past, but it would mildot or plex and MOA adjustment. I don't think I would get the BDC reticles.

 

[1911 guy]

The Mil-dot system isn't exactly hard, you just need to make your mind up to learn it. But you are entirely correct, mixing a Mil-dot reticle with MOA adjustments is something to be avoided. I use both MOA (most of my scopes) and Mil-dot (2 of them), but the adjustments are consistent with the recitle on each scope. Mixing is Bad JuJu.

 

[MtnCreek]

Once you get sited in, record your holds in MOA, not inches. Your reticle will be MOA, your turrets will be MOA, might as well make you holds in MOA. Even less mixing.

 

[imaybail]

Scope Choice

I recently bought a .223 bolt rifle and went with the Nikon M-223 3-12x 42 scope. This scope is from the Monarch line. It has a BDC reticle with holdover dots out to 600 yards. With the Nikon "Spot On" software, you can determine the holdovers for any specific bullet, velocity, and ballistic co-efficient. Nikon also offers custom turrets for your specific load. It comes set up for 55 gr. ballistic tip at around 3000 fps. Comes with an ARD too. One inch tube. Zero resettable target type turrets.

I mounted mine, sighted it in at 100 yds. , and have shot about 100 rounds so far. I printed off the holdovers from the Nikon software for my load (69 gr. SMK) and used that for my holdovers at various ranges. Have tried the turrets as well for windage and elevation compensation and they work well.

Also given the limitations of the .223 ballistics and for my age/eyes, 12 power is about right for my setup.

 

[jakk280rem]

For your stated purpose and budget I'd buy this: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/53...2mm-v-plex-reticle-matte?cm_vc=ProductFinding with the V-Plex reticle. Side focus parralx adjustments will mean making on-the-fly adjustments without br breaking your firing hold or losing sight picture. A continual 4" of eye relief means your eye will find the box despite your firing position. And the size of the box won't change as the magnification does. Also I would choose the V-Plex reticle over the BDC because the V-Plex will subtend less of the target, allowing you to make more precise shots.

 

[Cee Zee]

I'd suggest that you take a look at this web page which shows the equipment used in the ARA Nationals which is a 50 yard rimfire .22 competition. You said you were mostly going to be doing target work. You'll find that about a third of the top 100 shooters all use one scope - the Weaver T-36. Yes it's a 36X scope but for target shooting that's what is best. The better you can see your target the better you can shoot it. This scope isn't worth a hoot for hunting but for varmint and target work it is the price/performance leader in a big way.

Another thing you talk about getting a reticle with MOA markings. The thing about target shooting is that you don't want to block out what you're shooting with a reticle that covers your target. At 100 yards it isn't much of a problem. But when you're trying to hit a < 1" bullseye at 500 yards it helps if you aren't covering up that bullseye with a reticle that is too thick or has too many markings. And yes it is possible to hit a target that size at 500 yards. But a heavy reticle can cover up a 5" area at that distance making it hard to know if you're aimed at the bull or not. That's why they make target reticles. Yes they will be harder to use in low light but people rarely shoot targets in low light. Sometimes you might shoot a varmint in low light but the reticle will show up until it's really unsafe to be shooting because of low light. You want to know what's behind your intended target if you're shooting varmints and that may be hard if the light is too low.

The scope I would get (and did get) for the exact same purposes you described was a Weaver T-36 w/ target reticle. It also comes in black BTW. It has 1/8" click turrets. It comes with a sunshade and this is the lowest price I found it for ($370).

One of the best shooters around got me started with these scopes. I only have 2 of them but that's really all I need because I only have 2 rifles that are used for target shooting. But you can bet that if I get another target rifle it will have another T-36 on it. That good shooter I mentioned said the Weaver was considered the entry level scope into the range of top quality scopes. It is priced much lower than other scopes in the same quality range according to him. I just don't think you can beat it for the price. I'd like to have a Nightforce but the price is pretty steep for me the way things are currently. Until then I'm perfectly happy with my T=36's.

 

[Tinpig]

Another vote for the Brownell Elite 3200. This is the 10x40 mounted on my Savage 14 in .223. An accurate combination at a reasonable price.


Tinpig

 

[12many]

I ended up shopping around this weekend and trying out several scopes. Vortex were nice, but so was the glass on the Nikons and Leopolds. Honestly, I don't think I know exactly what I want. I do like the MOA reticle the most so far and I think I like the SFP scopes. I know that they are not as high end.

Instead of buying something now for $600 plus, that I may not like or want now without really knowing how I am going to use it, I bought a starter scope. I ended up getting the Nikon Buckmaster 6x18 - 40. This is not my first choice for power as I think 6 power is too high and it is lower level that I had planned, but the price was only $260 to my door. It also has target turrets (2 sets), side focus, and a hood. I probably have a set of 1 inch rings in my 'box' of stuff. It will get me to the range anyway and give me a chance to try out some longer range shooting. It has mil-dot reticle, which will give me a chance to try out a 'ranging' reticle. It is coming from Midway and was on sale. It has good reviews and was a bit of an impulse buy, but for the price it will be a good scope to have around and I can always swap it to another gun in the future or sell it for a couple hundred.

Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[Cee Zee]

Nikon makes nice scopes. I have a couple of them and they have some really good features. The glass is good and the light gathering is very good. Both of mine are 3-9X40 which I consider a good hunting scope.

 

[12many]

Thanks.

I have had good luck with Nikon. I think they make a solid product. I am not under any illusions regarding where it sits in relation to other scopes and I know it will have limitations, but it will get me shooting this rifle and allow me to see what features I want/need. My optics range is from 3 to 18 now with various scopes. This is my first scope over 9 power.

 

[2ndtimer]

I have a Buckmasters in 4.5-14X and it is an okay scope. Certainly, there are better scopes, but in the price range, the Nikon is fine. I like mine, but admit to prefering my Leupold VX-III in the same power range.