Scored a Vintage Charley

[Loyalist Dave]

So I got a lead on a pair of used, repro muskets. One was a Jap Bess, and since the other was a 1763 Charleville, with part of the barrel marked '1984" I was betting it was Jap too...probably Navy Arms or perhaps Dixie Gunworks. Anyway..., the Bess and the Charley both had bayonets, slings, and flash guards on the locks, so they were meant to be shot not wall-hangers, but the previous owner was heavy into CW (not the revolution) so maybe not much shooting was done with them. Perhaps he used them in demonstrations with his CW rifled muskets? (pure guessing on my part) The Bess went for like $900, and I didn't get it, but for some reason the Charleville and bayonet went for about the same as an India made musket. Luckily since I play a "Loyalist" and they had to scrounge muskets, I can use either a Bess or a Charley. I hope the bore is good.

LD

 

[Crawdad1]

What are you using now Dave in reenactments? A Bess?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yes I use an early model bess, an LLP..., although it's the last variation which I should point out..., should be in the hands of a "regular" private not a provincial (historically speaking) and I should have (historically) an upgraded 1742/48 or such. OR..., I use an Artillery Carbine since I am a senior sergeant (and rhip), and use my LLP for recruits.

Most of the reenactors are using SLP's either vintage Jap or Italian ones, or new Italian ones.... for the British side. The Doodles sometimes use a Bess but mostly they use Charlies.

For other folks who read this and that are not up on the lingo :
LLP = Long Land Pattern (Bess, which was 46" in barrel and .77 caliber smoothbore; some models were shortened to 42" barrels and had metal reenforcement of the nose of the stock, and switched to a metal ramrod, and some of the older models were also retro-fitted) A majority of British Army Soldiers would have been armed with the 1756 version, while the older, worn versions from 1742 would likely have been shipped over for provincial (loyal colonial) regiments.
Colonial Armories had some of these older muskets as well as civilian made copies, which is why some of the Doodles (especially militia) carry a Bess.
SLP = Short Land Pattern (Bess, which was "approved" in 1769 BUT didn't start showing up in Line Regiments until about half way through the Revolution, and then came over in small numbers) None of the colonials would have had these until after the surrender at Saratoga, and nobody would have had these in the F&I since its production was not approved until after the F&I War.
Charlie = Charleville musket. The proper historic version is really a 1728 or a 1748 but when the Italians made them for the bicentennial, they used the 1763 version which we know today was more likely used by French soldiers, and the earlier version was likely given to the Continental Army. The Jap Bess and Charleville was a copy of the Italian versions in most ways to take advantage of the market at that time.
Doodles = British reenactors like to refer to their Continental Army counterparts as "doodles" from "Yankee Doodle", since that song was sort of adopted by the Continentals.

LD

 

[AlexanderA]

The use of Charlevilles by Americans in the Rev War would not really be correct for scenarios before 1779, since that was the year that French aid in arms and uniforms started coming in. Reenactors tend to equip themselves in late war kit (because that's what's available).

Actually, none of the commonly available repro Besses and Charlevilles would be historically correct (if we want to be nitpicking about it), but reenacting is about suspending disbelief anyway.

The Japanese Charleville repro is actually a good weapon to use in War of 1812 reenactments, especially if you get a replacement lockplate with the American M1795 markings. (The same goes for repro Besses on the British side.)

 

[Crawdad1]

I don't look to closely at the equipment but look at the tactics employed back then. Watching reenactments gives you a great view of these tactics as they are actually employed on actual terrain. To see a whole line of men practically disappear in front of you because of a seemingly insignificant swell in the ground is fascinating.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I don't look to closely at the equipment but look at the tactics employed back then. Watching reenactments gives you a great view of these tactics as they are actually employed on actual terrain. To see a whole line of men practically disappear in front of you because of a seemingly insignificant swell in the ground is fascinating.

Yeah we as reenactors are trying to do better at the presentation for the public as well. Unfortunately the first two years or so of the AWI, the British mostly attacked with the bayonet, starting at a slow jog, what guys sometimes today call an airborne shuffle, took a volley at about 80 yards so very few casualties, then closed on the Continentals before they could reload. Can't really do that in a demonstration without hurting somebody who falls when jogging, or one of the Doodles doesn't run away fast enough or also falls down. See the book, With Zeal and Bayonets Only.

We've also found that for 40 years we've been standing too close to each other, AND the opposing lines are too close.
We've over the past years gone to two ranks instead of three, and recently started standing with the lads one arm length apart at open order. Still though we'd bang away at each other at around 50 yards.

BUT we found even when using very undersized ball, that when target shooting at 50 yard or less at open order, 2x deep...., the lads score a lot more hits on the targets than is recorded in the orderly books for what really happened.

So some of the historians got with some archaeologists, and found that they actually banged away more often at 100 yards or more. Really close encounters with lots of volleys was not the norm. Which explains why they had so many misses.

Apparently the British because replacements were tough to come by, would maneuver and try to score hits while not really exposing the British privates to deadly fire, while the Continentals would rather fire at longer distances since their troops would tend to break and run if the Brits got too close and if they faced a bayonet charge. Now Von Steuben changed the whole dynamic, but the Brits still wanted to out maneuver the Continentals to make them give up the ground, even if the bayonet charge had lost it's overwhelming advantage.

LD

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The same goes for repro Besses on the British side

Actually the 3rd model Bess with the shorter barrel and different lock and sideplate was what was used throughout the British army by the Napoleonic Wars, and the war of 1812. The captured Bess that ended up in some state militia armories in the United States were 3rd Models..., some were later converted to caplocks.

LD

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Fear also adds to the number of shots missed! Now if you can make targets that shoot back, you might get a more realistic count.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Fear also adds to the number of shots missed! Now if you can make targets that shoot back, you might get a more realistic count

Well that being true, the volley fire method was designed to reduce the need to know how to "shoot at marks" in the British and Continental Army. While the British did practice shooting at marks [target shooting] it was up to the regimental commander and the available ammunition. The Continentals had very poor supply with less resources, but appear to inflict very similar levels of musket wounds, being less trained so fear may have played a bigger part with them.

LD

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Continental squirrels seldom shot back. I've always thought that the planned retreat of the continental new volunteers after a single volley back through the lines of continental seasoned regulars was a brilliant ploy. "All you have to do is fire one shot and then go hide in the woods!" The British would vaguely see the front line running through the smoke and assume the whole force was skedaddling and charge into the next ranks' waiting guns.

 

[AlexanderA]

I've always thought that the planned retreat of the continental new volunteers after a single volley back through the lines of continental seasoned regulars was a brilliant ploy. "All you have to do is fire one shot and then go hide in the woods!"

Gen. Morgan at Cowpens. Actually, this tactic (having irregulars make a token demonstration and then run, unmasking the disciplined line of regulars) has been used at many times and places throughout the world, going back to ancient times. The Turks used it at the siege of Constantinople, sending the bashi-bazouks ("crazy heads") as a first wave ahead of the disciplined Janissaries.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Good score LD. I almost got a Perdesoli 1803 last week for $625. Almost.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Love the .69 Charleys!! Do post picks when you can!

I've been pondering the Pedersoli Charley, or the Pedersoli Bess... such decisions!!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Continental squirrels seldom shot back. I've always thought that the planned retreat of the continental new volunteers after a single volley back through the lines of continental seasoned regulars was a brilliant ploy. "All you have to do is fire one shot and then go hide in the woods!" The British would vaguely see the front line running through the smoke and assume the whole force was skedaddling and charge into the next ranks' waiting guns.

Actually I think you're thinking of Cowpens. Colonel Daniel Morgan came out of retirement, and was with (iirc) the 11th VA (his rifle regiment had been sent to the area around Ft. Pitt), and he was down with the regulars near a place of several stock corrals, called "The Cowpens" in South Carolina. Morgan (now a Brigadier General) knew that the militia was not trained to stand up to the British bayonet charge (which is NEVER done right in the movies btw). So..., what he did was have the trained regular soldiers, form up behind a small rise, just enough to keep them from being easily seen by the British line, and then had two ranks of militia form on the side of the rise that the British could see, facing the British. Morgan outnumbered the British by almost 2:1 with around 2000 troops, BUT the British had horse and a pair of field guns. . The British advanced and the militia fired two volleys, and then retreated quickly over the rise, forming up to the rear of the Continentals. The British commanding officer named Banaster Tarleton, had about 300 cavalry, and ordered a charge since the "rebels were fleeing". The cavalry charged in with British infantry following behind.

The cavalry charge topped the rise and found they were not closing in behind fleeing militia, but found they were facing a battle formation of highly trained, battle tested Continentals, mostly from Maryland (it's called the Old Line State for a reason, this battle and a few others) . The Brits were slaughtered; Tarleton's personal cavalry unit ceased to exist. The Continentals then advance over the rise to meet the British infantry as they arrived. Things went from bad to FUBAR almost immediately for the Brits. Only about 160 of the 1100 British escaped either death or capture.

Classic blunder by Tarleton, who for some reason (since he managed to escape) didn't get court marshaled for his blunder..., maybe when you're the only guy writing the after action report, you can dodge disgrace?

LD

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

From my youth, I remember Francis Marion (aka the Swamp Fox aka Leslie Nielsen) always got the better of Tarleton (aka John Sutton) on Disney! One of my son's favorite movies is The Patriot with Col. Tavington / Tarleton. Congratulations on your Charleville. Of all the flint muskets, I like its lines the best. I had an 1808 contract musket for a while but it got sold somewhere along the way. It has been my only flinter. It looked really nice on the wall!

 

[AlexanderA]

I found that the only reproduction bayonet that will properly fit the Japanese Charleville is the one from G. Gedney Godwin. Even that has to have the socket shortened.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I found that the only reproduction bayonet that will properly fit the Japanese Charleville is the one from G. Gedney Godwin. Even that has to have the socket shortened

INDEED, and I've found that the bayonet that came with the musket, needs to be shortened about 3/8ths of an inch. I don't think it was ever fired as the flint that came with the lock was very short, and all of the marks on the Frizzen match that flint, as when I put in a new musket flint..., it strikes much higher up and there are no marks there on the frizzen face. So I apparently got very lucky..., I bought a fully functioning musket that was used as a wall hanger, or perhaps as a lecture piece.

LD