Seater Dies

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tkcomer

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I have an extremely old Hornady seater die for 223. Great for back in the day when I was just blasting. But now I want a little more precision. This die varies as much as 20 thousands (Or more) with 69 SMK bullets. I know you can't get exactly the OAL with every bullet, but 20 thousands seems way too excessive. Is there a better seater die out there?
 
You can't tell anything measuring from the case head to the tip of the bullet.
Minor variations in bullets can account for major variations in measured OAL.

What you need to do is buy or make a bullet comparator so you are measuring off the bullet ogive instead of the tip.
It can be as simple as a small shaft collar, or nut with a hole drilled in one flat you slip over the bullet tip.

Or as factory made as this.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=34262/Product/Sinclair-Hex-Style-Bullet-Comparators

rc
 
The seater plug is the most important part! I have had RCBS tool me special seater plugs to match the ogive of the bullets I am loading. I have had them do that for about six different bullets over the years. I would mail them five bullets (pills) that they would use to create the perfect plug!

They used to do it for free, in the 80's, now they charge like $25 or so.

Perhaps that is all you need to make the seating more uniform. If the seater plug is the same thread as other dies, the custom-plug wouldn't go to waste as you might be able to use it on a more expensive die. I don't know just how the expensive dies are assembled.
 
Actually, I was looking at the RCBS Comp seater die. I just didn't know how much more consistent it would be. I'm fully aware that the different ogive of bullets will affect seating depth. But I wouldn't think these SMKs would have that big of a difference. My 308 SMKs with RCBS dies might vary 7 thousands. Not 20 thousands as I'm getting with this die.
 
Having the same dilemma, I looked at Forster seaters (my problem was runout), with and without a micrometer and Wilson seaters, which should be used with an arbor press. The Wilson is probably overkill, but I found the Forster to be a very precise tool and priced in the $50 range.

I trick I do, to avoid the extra money on a micrometer, is to make one dummy round for each bullet (no powder/primer) I intend to load with the precise OAL. I then use the dummy round to adjust the seater while in the press and get very, very close to precise OAL. Perhaps I'm dead on, perhaps a quarter turn may be necessary.
 
OAL variations are rarely due to the seater, as such. The seating stem is a steel plug screwed snugly into a steel die body which is firmly screwed into the press; that pretty well takes care of the top of the cartridge. The bottom of the case is positioned by the elevated ram.

Only way I know to get 30 thou variation is through a LOT of press spring and/or erratic lever operation in addition to the normal variations in individual bullets.
 
Your old seater die can be made more accurate if you manually "unset" it -- that is, back it out a turn -- between rounds, then manually creep it in again, measuring with each incremental adjustment, for each round. Takes a little longer, but if you're diligent it can work.

Since every bullet is thus treated as if it were a different make or model (accounting for tiny differences in ogive that occur in some bullets even of the same model and lot), every round's OAL is precisely controlled.
 
I'm loading for an AR-15, so I need to keep OAL at mag length. A bullet that seats at 2.265” and the next one that seats at 2.243” is unacceptable to me. To back the seater stem out and then screw it back in to seat each bullet individually to me seems a hassle. I don't have this wide a variance problem with my other dies.

I've had this die since the early 80's. A lot of new style 223 bullets have come out since then. That what makes me wonder if the OAL problem is with my seater die, or is the problem with the SMKs?
 
I still think it probably has something to do with the seating stem not matching the bullet you are using more then anything.

Color a bullet with a black magic marker and seat it.

You should be able to see where the die seating stem is coming in contact with the bullet.

rc
 
To back the seater stem out and then screw it back in to seat each bullet individually to me seems a hassle
Click to expand...

Agreed, but it will improve your results until a less inconvenient fix is achieved.
 
Just got off the phone with a friend that reloads 308. He said when he went from a regular RCBS die to the RCBS Comp die, OAL improved a lot. Without all the fiddling that I've been doing. That confirms my belief that a new die would improve my results.
 
I use the RCBS comp. dies and they seat very precise. The only real variation I ever see is from the bullet olgive inconsistencies, which can vary quite a bit with standard quality bullets.

One of the features I really use a lot with those dies is the micrometer setting. After I determine a particular bullet seating depth for that rifle, I write the micrometer depth in my log book so I can quickly set up for that bullet/rifle. Of course olgive does vary from one lot to the next, so there is almost always some minor tuning to be done.
 
seater die

Theres a lot of sound advise and ideas posted above. Are you using a progressive or a single stage press? Do you clean your dies when finished loading, lube while in storage, and clean before using? Possibly your seating stem is hung up or dirty.

I used hornady dies for twenty years and always had decent luck with them, but my main gripe was with an unsupported case I was suffering from runnout problems in seating as well as sizing. I don't want to start discussing another subject here, but I have been purchasing the Redding dies when the money is available. Their competition dies support the case when seating the bullet to help negate the concentricity problem and I have never noticed a problem with consistancy of bullet seating. You can get different seating stems for them also for the real pointy heads like VLDs. As was mentioned above, the bullet comparator works great as the bullet tips can get damaged and throw off your measurements whereas the comparator measues close to the olgive.

Good luck
 
Even seven thousands is a lot.Have you measured the bullets to see how much they vary.You need some kind of comparator measuring oal isn't accurate enough.Buying high priced seating dies may not help your problem. the high priced dies dies help with runout and make lenght adjustment easy.I am not sure exactly what's wrong but the 7mm-08 I loaded today on stanard RCBS dies have less than 2 thousands differance checked with a comparator I only checked 10 so it might be a little more if I checked them all
 
After finding some videos comparing the RCBS to the Reading comp die, I'm going to go with the Reading. While I have no way to read bullet runout, it seems the Reading does a much better job. I might even get one for the 308 to see if I can tighten groups up with it.
 
Redding does make some of the best! However, it sounds like something else is at play here, so I would first diagnose the cause before changing dies.
 
The problem is likely not the die. Try measuring the lenght of a few of your bullets. That's likely where you're seeing the inconsistency. The Redding and Forster(my preference) BR seater dies have precisely fit sleeves that align the case with the bullet as it seats. These help reduce run out but I have seen NO difference in consistency of seating depth between these benchrest seaters and normal seating dies.

The RCBS comp die with the sliding sleeve is not as precise as the Forster or Redding.
 
Let's see...I have 3 seater dies in .223. Worst to best runout and OAL consistency: Lee, Redding, Forster Bench rest (the latter winning by a wide margin). Because the BR can be adjusted to bump the shellholder without crimping, it creates a dead length chamber. On my progressive that results in near zero variation in seating depth. Since I don't crimp rifle ammo, this works well. The lee seater is, well, awful - the floating seating dowel bored .010 off center. The die also has zero (as in none) case support.
 
The Forster Bench Rest dies are very good dies and it doesn't surprise me they get the least variation.But he should be able to do much better than 20 thousands differance with standard dies
 
sugarmaker said:
Let's see...I have 3 seater dies in .223. Worst to best runout and OAL consistency: Lee, Redding, Forster Bench rest (the latter winning by a wide margin). Because the BR can be adjusted to bump the shellholder without crimping, it creates a dead length chamber. On my progressive that results in near zero variation in seating depth. Since I don't crimp rifle ammo, this works well. The lee seater is, well, awful - the floating seating dowel bored .010 off center. The die also has zero (as in none) case support.
Click to expand...

I have a Lee seater that took perfectly straight cases (zero runout) and added .008 runout. I researched "bang for the buck" seaters and wound up with the Forster. Though it's $50 without the micrometer, it's one very accurate seater.

My other Lee seater doesn't have the problem and I absolutely love my Lee collet dies - so I'm not trying to slam Lee.
 
"I absolutely love my Lee collet dies - so I'm not trying to slam Lee. "

Same here - my progressive sequence for rifle loads uses a Lee collet in station 1 - it's a great product.
 
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