Second Circuit to Second Amendment: Drop Dead...

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Flyboy

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(Title purloined from http://reason.com/blog/show/131610.html)
Second Circuit Holds Second Amendment Not Applicable to States

The Second Amendment guarantee of the right to bear arms does not apply to override state firearms bans, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit declared Jan. 28. Under the incorporation doctrine, only certain provisions of the Bill of Rights apply to the states, and the Second Amendment is one of those that does not, the Second Circuit held (Maloney v. Cuomo, 2d Cir., No. 07-0581-cv, 1/28/09).

The statute at the center of this case, N.Y. Penal Law §265.01(1), provides criminal penalties for possession of a broad range of items, including weapons used in martial arts. The plaintiff was charged under the statute after police found fighting sticks, or nunchaku, in his home. He ended up pleading guilty to a different charge and then filed a lawsuit against the county prosecutor and others seeking a declaration that the law offends his Second Amendment right to bear arms.

Incorporation Doctrine

For the first half of its life, the U.S. Constitution's Bill of Rights was interpreted as constraining only the federal government—not the states. However, in the late 1800s and early 1900s, the U.S. Supreme Court began ruling that certain rights were incorporated into the limits on state governments imposed by the 14th Amendment's due process clause. The provisions selected for incorporation so far include most, but not all, of the rights that come into play in criminal cases. For example, the right to indictment does not apply to the states.

Back before the incorporation doctrine took hold, the Supreme Court held, in United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875), and Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886), that the Second Amendment is a limitation only on the power of the federal government and thus does not constrain state regulations. The Supreme Court's subsequent Second Amendment cases, United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), and District of Columbia v. Heller, 76 U.S.L.W. 4631 (U.S. 2008), both involved federal regulations, so the incorporation issue was not really in play. Nevertheless, in a footnote in Heller, the Supreme Court had this to say:

With respect to Cruikshank‘s continuing validity on incorporation, a question not presented by this case, we note that Cruikshank also said that the First Amendment did not apply against the States and did not engage in the sort of Fourteenth Amendment inquiry required by our later cases. Our later decisions in Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252, 265 (1886) and Miller v. Texas, 153 U.S. 535, 538 (1894), reaffirmed that the Second Amendment applies only to the Federal Government.

The Second Circuit, in contrast, has directly addressed the incorporation issue in recent years. In Bach v. Pataki, 408 F.3d 75, 73 U.S.L.W. 1677 (2d Cir. 2005), the court rejected a challenge to a state gun-control law on the ground that the states' power to regulate firearms is not limited by the Second Amendment right to bear arms.

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/crimprof_blog/2009/02/second-circuit.html
 
I hope so. If the other Federal Courts in California or Chicago hold that 2A does apply to the states, then SCOTUS will certainly hear one of them due to the split at the lower level. I'm getting my popcorn ready.
 
Antis are playing right into our hands. "As we held earlier in Heller .... concomitant with .... in light of .... we find .... PWM'ed."
 
From what I've heard/read, the SCOTUS wouldn't help us out here.

I'm confused about Heller because I keep hearing/reading that their decision was pointed toward federal enclaves (Wash D.C.) rather than states.

I've heard/read that Heller wouldn't affect states' rights to limit the 2nd Amendment as they saw fit.

Hopefully what I've heard/read is incorrect because it all makes Heller seem more like a failure than a victory for anyone living outside of D.C.
 
That's because SCOTUS ruled only on the matter at hand. Heller did not involve incorporation, so that point was not resolved conclusively in the ruling, though some doubt was cast upon Cruikshank.

Heller was not a failure by any means, unless you expected SCOTUS to strike down every gun law in one fell swoop. It succeeded in finally ruling that the 2A protected an individual right to bear arms. That's huge. It may not seem much, but it's a building block for future litigation.
 
Not a legal scholar but I spoke with Robert Levy who helped argue Heller and he expected this and said something to the effect that this particular court could not overrule a previous decision it had made re: incorporation therefore the case to look at is the one out in California
 
This could potentially be BAD if it went to SCOTUS.

We only got to keep our rights by 1 vote last time, depending on how SCOTUS looked at this, we could be superscrewed by the Bradys in a heartbeat.
 
The 2nd had some years ago tied their own hands as already mentioned, the relevant sections in the finding are,

And to the extent that Heller might be read to question the continuing validity of this principle, we “must follow Presser” because “[w]here, as here, a Supreme Court precedent ‘has direct application in a case, yet appears to rest on reasons rejected in some other line of decisions, the Court of Appeals should follow the case which directly controls, leaving to the Supreme Court the prerogative of overruling its own decisions.’”


The second part is

We will uphold legislation if we can identify “some reasonably conceivable state of facts that could provide a rational basis for the legislative action. (underlined emphasis added)

This relates at least tangentially to the current lack of direction from the SC on what level of scrutiny is applicable.

California (Nordyke) is the next to watch and a split is just what is required to fast track an appeal to the SC.
 
If Federal Officers can, under federal authority and federal drug restrictions, just walk into CA medical marijuana dispensaries and completely violate CA state law (prop 215) concerning the sale and use of medicinal marijuana, then federal authority concerning the 2nd Amendment should likewise supersede CA's, ESPECIALLY where it concerns the defense of citizen's Constitutional rights.
If things went the other way, vice versa....
 
Heller said:"It succeeded in finally ruling that the 2A protected an individual right to bear arms." As the constitution states. it doesnt say protect the right from the federal government, it says individual right. if the states attempt to infringe upon it, that removes the individual right from the individual, which violates the constitution. Hence, by enumerating individual rights, the constitution *should* be in and of itself incorporated into the state law as well.
 
This one is a no brainer..

SCOUS has already ruled that I believe the 10 N 14 pertain to the individual citizen, therefore by simple conjecture that so does the rest of the BILL OF RIGHTS including the second.... Every one in pre law knows this....
Now the question is how did some communist get a judicial position OH wait you used the C word....
As and after thought at one time not too many years ago if a judge made such a stupid decision and did not interpret the law he would have been before a Congressional commission and flat out call them a commie, my how times have changed.
 
Yes, SCOTUS ruled RKBA is an individual right.

Yes, we were screwed when SCOTUS waved its little fairy wand and threw out the "shall not be infringed" part of the 2nd Amendment.

SCOTUS has ruled that the Federal Constitution does not apply to the states except through incorporation into the 14th Amendment. SCOTUS has yet to rule on this (since they gave themselves the power to interpret the Federal Constitution in Marbury v. Madison).

Don't hold your breath, people. There are far too many gun laws for them to wipe out with incorporation. Actually, they probably won't wipe out many laws at all since they're ignoring "shall not be infringed."

Get ready to lock and load. We're going to have to demand our rights.


**Gun Control and Gun Rights, Kopel, et al.
 
This relates at least tangentially to the current lack of direction from the SC on what level of scrutiny is applicable.

Correct, but the test employed in the portion of Maloney v. Cuomo which you quote is the rational relationship test, which, forgetting about everything else, was specifically rejected by the Heller decision. The rational relationship test is the lowest level of scrutiny under which all laws must pass muster. Those that implicate fundamental rights or involve suspect classifications of race or religion have a higher standard of scrutiny. Scalia indicated that they need not decide on the level of scrutiny except to the extent that it is most certainly NOT the rational relationship test.

That does not mean Maloney v. Cuomo was "wrong" in employing that test here... at least not after they concluded that the 2nd was not applicable. At that point the plaintiff still asserted 14th amendment claims against the statute... essentially asserting that the law was stupid and therefore void under substantive due process, and the rational relationship test was employed because it did not implicate a "fundamental right" which is protected from state infringment.

The entire case is here:

http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov:8080/is...A3LTA1ODEtY3Zfb3BuLnBkZg==/07-0581-cv_opn.pdf
 
We only got to keep our rights by 1 vote last time, depending on how SCOTUS looked at this, we could be superscrewed by the Bradys in a heartbeat.

You'll only be screwed if you live in a "BAD" state (NY,NJ,IL,CA,etc). If you live in a "GOOD" state (TX,AZ,MT,VT,NH, etc) you'll be fine.
 
The states, counties etc have the right to pass more strict laws to federal laws, but not to make something considered illegal by federal law legal. Mary-jane is illegal on the federal level, therefore it cannot be made legal at lower government levels.
Hopefully we can win CA, Ill, and the rest will fall from there. If we think the 2nd is worth it we will fight to keep it.
 
Not the point of the thread, but the Obama administration announced they would not hassle medical marijuana operations that are legal under state law.
 
Not the point of the thread, but the Obama administration announced they would not hassle medical marijuana operations that are legal under state law.
So Obama thinks the 10th amendment applies to something...a light at the end of the tunnel for gun owners...a small light mind you...and it's Bob Marley with a...never mind...you get the idea :)
 
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