Security "expert": Pepper spray can take down 5-10 men at a time

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hoji:

I have said it before, and I assure you it is true, there are medications on the market that so profoundly reduce pain and discomfort, that I question if the pepper spray would have effect. I acknowledge that it might; but, I remain very skeptical.

I used to take 300 Mg doses of Neurontin for nerve damage, prior to my electronic stimulator being implanted into my spine. At that time I was still extremely active in martial arts. The one system of defense that we use heavily, is pressure points. Over the course of the two years that I used Neurontin for that nerve pain, literally nobody was able to arouse a physical reaction of any sort out of me, no matter how hard they struck or pressed my pressure points.

As a graduate research professor, I am well aware that all rules have exceptions. Neurontin may be the exception to the pepper spray rule, and the beauty of Neurontin...it does not mess one up cognitively.

Doc2005
 
Or maybe he lives in Mass. where it is basically illegal to carry a firearm and does not know any different!!
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About 40% of the m*******s who have Ted Kennedy And John Kerry and the Boston Globe and Mayor Menino and Harvard and restrictive gun laws are Conservative Republicans and Libertarians. We simply have no representation from our .gov or voice in our media - or any respect for them.

A huge percentage of our population of idealistic young socialists are YOUR children sent here to go to school from out of state.

And BTW , I legally own an RomAK & Bushmaster w/ 30 rnd mags, A Winchester 1894 , 2 pump shotguns , a ParaOrd 1911 , a Sig 228 , ... and an ALP LTC .

But I don't carry pepper spray - I carry a 1911 and a knife.

Anyway - I'm out of here anyway when my kid finishes high school. Because the other 60 % of my neighbors are actively trying to sink this country.
 
hoji:

I have said it before, and I assure you it is true, there are medications on the market that so profoundly reduce pain and discomfort, that I question if the pepper spray would have effect. I acknowledge that it might; but, I remain very skeptical.
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And as I have said, it is not 100% effective all the time. Your case is extraordinary. Fortunately most people are hopped up on something other than Neurontin.:neener: For me it has worked on crackheads,drunks,methheads,psychotics, and in one case,PCP{ I will admit the effect was short lasting but long enough to subdue and handcuff}

Given the choice between having nothing or having a good can of First Defense X2, I will take the X2 over rolling on the ground with someone every time.
 
In a home defense situation you're in your home, an enclosed space, right?

If you are in an enclosed space you will be affected by the OC as well as it splashes back in the air, right?

So yeah, it can take out 5-10 guys at a shot, trouble is, if you aren't very careful, you're one of them.

I'll stick with my detterent being delivered 230 grains at a time.
 
If someone was trying to beat Cho's score, pepper spray wouldn't be enough.

It might be enough stopping to run away, but I'd only use it as a last resort...uh...that came out wrong...only carry it if I wasn't allowed to carry real weapons...like here at college...:banghead:...although it might be useful as an early-use weapon...but here in CT lawyers are thick; you better hope the guy you're after dies, along with all his family, or some leechy lawyer will eat you.
 
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hoji:

Might be a pretty good indicator that they are using Neurontin, if after "seasoning" with pepper spray, they simply stand there licking their fingers and asking for more. :banghead:

And, I agree...better that you season them, than roll around on the ground with them!!!

Doc2005
 
A guy I know was formerly an Australian military policeman. They use an extremely powerful OC spray delivered in a jet, rather than an aerosol form. Before they qualify you to use it, you have to have been sprayed with it. After getting sprayed, doing pushups etc, they were permitted to immerse their faces in bins of water to relieve the burning. Two guys in his class passed out because they refused to come up for air.

According to him, it's a great deal kinder to shoot a man than spray him with the stuff. He said his eyes closed up immediately and every breath felt like his chest was caving in (he could also barely breath through severely swollen everything). His sinuses went a little bit insane etc. His face felt pretty much like someone was holding a blow torch to it. He did the required exercises completely blind, barely getting enough oxygen to stay conscious and wondering why he hadn't stayed armoured cav.
 
I've seen studies that the type of pepper spray can greatly affect its effectiveness. It's potency, spray pattern, and what type of solution it's in (some will greatly change in their pressure if you change the temperature) will influence how useful it is. Also, I've heard that the training one receives with it has a big impact on whether it's of any use or not.
 
I'd sooner use varnish stripper or carburetor cleaner, I know that would work, and there'd be no problem ID'ing the perp later, though not from his high school year book photo.
 
I'd sooner use varnish stripper or carburetor cleaner, I know that would work, and there'd be no problem ID'ing the perp later, though not from his high school year book photo.
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Although if it's not seen as meeting force with force, he could take you to court and force you to compensate him for all the medical bills, lost work time, etc. He could argue that you had a legal duty to meet force with force and that it would make more sense for you to pay all these bills then for him to, in the same way people involved in car accidents always argue that the other person owed a legal duty to yield right of way (or not run a red light) and since they failed their legal duty they need to compensate the other person for all costs, and often get something out of it. If you're going to cause severe physical damage, I'd rather use a firearm. The advantage of pepper spray is that if you don't need deadly force, you don't have to worry as much about damage being done that could get you sued. I've seen studies that when a police officer uses pepper spray, there's less likely to be "permanent" physical damage than if they were to punch or use a baton (pain is another matter, but permanent damage can get you into trouble).
 
I carry a can of OC on my person everyday, at work a Mk4 and a smaller can while off duty. It is just a tool, as such i know it isnt a miraculous godsend that will immediately get me out of trouble. It has its uses, as does my firearm. I have used OC on my fair share of subject and only once has it not given the desired results. (that particular individual took two full cans of Mk4 and numerous baton strikes to subdue and injured several officers in the process) Personally i can see the logic for a civilian to carry OC. The odds of you having to go "hands on" with an individual are considerably higher then having to use deadly force.
 
Pain compliance and effective at stopping a determined attacker are very different things.
Prisons are a great example of less lethal force used in controlling groups on a regular basis.

Here is a video that is good at illustrating inneffective pepper spray on multiple people.
Unfortunately it has music and an annoying start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhFdkC2zPMc
At about 50-60 seconds you will see a can of spray about the size of a large bear repellant can being aimed at close range. You will also see another guy spraying from a couple feet away directly into the face of people continuing to fight with around a 4-6 oz can (hard to see with grainy video).

They keep fighting for awhile, the spray makes them less effective but does not stop them.

I also posted a video awhile back of a cop using pepperspray at close range against the driver in a vehicle. Close range, enclosed space, directly in the face. It does not get any better for pepperspray than that.
The driver grabs a pistol and opens fire on the officer, fataly wounding him, then drives away. This was earlier this year. Here it is again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF-BtESLEsU
The shooter was later killed. However the pepper spray did the officer little good at that time.
 
I carry pepper spray in addition to my CCW handgun.

While I think that everybody who carries a gun should also carry pepper spray - because there might be that one time where using the pepper spray is a lot better than having to kill someone - I certainly feel better knowing that my pepper spray is backed-up by something that I know is going to be real effective.
 
I also carry pepper spray

you get in a lot less hassle then impact weapons or knives, even if you're in the right.

Still, the guy on youtube is a dolt.
 
Close range, enclosed space, directly in the face. It does not get any better for pepperspray than that
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At about 50-60 seconds you will see a can of spray about the size of a large bear repellant can being aimed at close range. You will also see another guy spraying from a couple feet away directly into the face of people continuing to fight with around a 4-6 oz can (hard to see with grainy video).
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WRONG,WRONG,WRONG,

I wish you self proclaimed "experts" would actually stick to what you know.:cuss:

The closer you get does not make pepper spray more effective, quite the opposite actually. The reason they say you want a minimum of 4-6 feet between you and the BG is so the carrier{the solution the OC is mixed with in the can, could be H2O, could be alcohol} can dissapate and you hit the assailant with nothing but the OC.

Another reason is that if you are right on top of someone and use a stream pattern, it can cause a pnumatic injection.
 
I wish you self proclaimed "experts" would actually stick to what you know.

The closer you get does not make pepper spray more effective, quite the opposite actually. The reason they say you want a minimum of 4-6 feet between you and the BG is so the carrier{the solution the OC is mixed with in the can, could be H2O, could be alcohol} can dissapate and you hit the assailant with nothing but the OC.
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It can also help to become a more effective aerosol to be inhaled. However that takes time to work and the immediate effects of spray are on the eyes and mucus membranes. The closer you are to a moving target the more likely you are to hit what you are aiming at with a spray, that means in a real world situation more of the limited contents in the can will end up on the person in the right spot, rather than various parts thier body and on the ground as they are moving and attacking.

Even a light wind can make delivery from a short distance very erratic against a moving target. So in the real world closer often does work better.
If the carrier of your spray is water you picked the wrong spray.

An aerosol inflamatory irritant at close range, used in an enclosed space, and hitting in the most vulnerable and immediately effected parts of the body does have the biggest chance for success. Every breath in such an enclosed space is likely to inhale some aerosol spray, and the eyes and face should be drenched. The aerosol droplets have no place to go like they do out in the open, and will dissipate much slower. This means the subject will recieve more effects than normal from the spray.

Yes it is possible to get a more perfect scenario, but not by much in the real world.
It could get slightly better, but not by much, and attempting the perfect scenario is less likely to succeed because less of the spray is likely to be on target in a fluid situation with moving targets and changing angles.
That is why I said it doesn't get any better.
Perhaps I should have said it doesn't get much better, because if it can become a perfect aerosol, and the subject stays still and is in an enclosed space, and the perfect aerosol was evenly applied to all mucus membranes on the face and the eyes it could get ever so slightly better.
Not enough to change the outcome in my video examples though.
The range they were employed at in the prison scene also changed and covered the entire spectrum from close to 15 feet, combined with tear gas as well. It still didn't stop them.
 
Keep in mind firearms don't always work either, including those on PCP

Here is a video that is good at illustrating inneffective pepper spray on multiple people.
Unfortunately it has music and an annoying start.
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Yes, pepper spray may not work sometimes, the same goes for firearms. I was watching the news a year and a half ago and it said there was a guy on PCP who took 30-40 handgun rounds before he finally went down. Now that is scary.


In "Handgun Wounding Factors And Effectiveness" from Firearms Training Unit FBI Academy, http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf p. 8, it says:

"With the exception of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth." The reference this paper uses for this statement is Wound Ballistic Workshot: "9mm vs. .45 Auto", FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, September 1987. Conclusion of the Workshop. This article goes on to say if you completely destroy the heart, they still have 10-15 seconds of voluntary action. It then says that often psychological factors play more of a role in instant incapacitation then physiological does.

I've also seen many other places that say that the only scientifically proven way to consistently incapacitate an attacker instantly with a handgun is to destroy the person's central nervous system, which is difficult in high stress combat situations especially with a handgun.


This all won't persuade me not to keep on carrying around my handgun cocked and ready. Just because a tool sometimes doesn't work doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't have any use in self-defense.
 
Here's a real life example of why it may be good to have other methods as well

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/1007hikershooting1007.html

This is a news article about Harold Fish, who was attacked by a homeless guy on a hiking trail. The homeless guy also had three dogs who charged at Harold. The homeless guy was unarmed (with the exception of his dogs). Harold Fish used his gun in self-defense and killed the homeless guy. From the time of the shooting, it took 2 years to finally be convicted (which can take time out of your life). He was convicted of second degree murder, and sentenced to the minimum of 10 years in prison. At the time of conviction, he was 59, which means he'll be 69 when he gets out. Don't they also say that the average life expectancy in the U.S. is the mid to late 70's? No matter what your age is, going to prison for 10 years and then finding that you've been away from life for 10 years would be devastating. Then his attorney tried to appeal the verdict. Then this article happened, "Governor vetoes hope for Harold Fish" http://www.paysonroundup.com/section/frontpage_lead/story/27665
 
I'd sooner use varnish stripper or carburetor cleaner, I know that would work, and there'd be no problem ID'ing the perp later, though not from his high school year book photo.
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in at least a couple of states OC carry is restricted... however there are NO laws prohibiting carrying carb cleaner in your car... and i dare say that carb cleaner is a whole lot more effective
 
in at least a couple of states OC carry is restricted... however there are NO laws prohibiting carrying carb cleaner in your car... and i dare say that carb cleaner is a whole lot more effective
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Which is fine for self defense when a weapon is okay to use.

Using a corrosive chemical for self defense is no different than using a knife, club, or other lethal object. Using pepperspray is generaly recognized as lower on the force continuum ladder, and is not the same as using a lethal weapon.

That means that it would be illegal to spray a drunk with such a chemical if they just meet the criteria of spraying them with pepperspray.
Each state has different laws, but use of a random corrosive chemical as a weapon will be treated the same as use of other weapons that can cause serious bodily injury or death. Basicly if it does not warrant shooting them, spraying them with such a chemical would be illegal.

So the use of the two are not interchangeable.

Keep it in mind.
 
:scrutiny:

Are you sure he said pepper spray?

Sounded like pecker to me.

Might just work, at that.

:what:
 
Another thing to look at, and im sure from the sounds of it Hoji and Zoogster would agree, you are not prepared by simply buying a can of OC and thinking you are done with it... Ive watched even trained officer stand facing a subject and deploy OC only to stand there and get freight trained by them as they simply keep running straight ahead... Just as with a handgun or any other weapon, the hardware is only part of it, you must have practical and realistic training for it to be effective... The false confidence of purchasing something and feeling as if your prepared can sometimes lead to you being very seriously injured (if not worse)
 
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