See it, hear it, feel it: Marines train with the AK-47 assault rifle

[Drizzt]

See it, hear it, feel it: Marines train with the AK-47 assault rifle

Submitted by: MCB Camp Pendleton
Story by: Computed Name: Sgt. Monroe Seigle
Story Identification #: 2005630115126

MARINE CORPS BASE CAMP PENDLETON, Calif.(June 30, 2005) -- Even after discovering and processing mounds of enemy weapons caches during their recent deployment in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom last fall, many Marines with 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment had never pulled the trigger on an AK-47.

These Marines got the chance to gauge the effectiveness of the enemy's weapon of choice during a live-fire exercise with the AK-47 assault rifle here June 23.

"Learning a new weapons system is just like learning a new language. The more you practice it, the better off you will be in battle when your weapon system goes down or malfunctions, and you have to pick up an enemy's weapon and put it to use," said Cpl. Tim Egnoski, a squad leader with 3rd Bn., 1st Marines.

Before the Marines sent rounds downrange, they first learned the basics of the weapon by practicing loading and unloading it and learning how to activate the safety lever.

The AK-47 is quite different from the M-16A2 service rifle -- the weapon all Marines become intimately acquainted with from the day they enter the Marine Corps.

The weapon's full name is the Avtomat Kalashnikova, 1947. The automatic weapon was developed by the famed Kalashnikov gun works in 1947, at the dawn of the Cold War. The world knows it by its initials the AK-47.

Simple to use and deadly efficient, the AK-47 is one of the most influential guns of the 20th century.

"Almost all the enemy fighters I saw in Iraq were using the AK-47," said Lance Cpl. Daniel O'Brien, a machinegunner with the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment. "We got to fire a few of them in Iraq, but we weren't able to actually spend some time to learn just how accurate it is compared to our weapons system. Having familiarity with different equipment makes Marines more useful on the battlefield. If you have to, you pick up another one and get back into the fight and that is what is important."

http://www.marines.mil/marinelink/m...8eb0258ada773d278525703000571b7d?OpenDocument

 

[El Tejon]

Just think how far they would be on their training if those marines had been raised shooting AK-47s.

 

[Onmilo]

Cripes, at Fort Bragg N.C. we had familiarization training, repair and maintenance, and the opportunity to qualify with the AK-47/AKM on a Soviet style range facility in the early 1980s.
Why do the current Marines going through training with Com-Bloc weapons come as such a shock??

 

[entropy]

BTDT, Ft.Ord, 1988. SKS, AK-47, RPK, RPD, Dragunov. They had an AK-74, but not enough ammo, as it had just came from Afghanistan. I believe that foreign weapons familiarization should be part of Basic, right after BRM.

Or earlier, like these Russian kids:



[David Lee Roth voice] But then my home room was never quite like this..[/David Lee Roth voice]

The Avtomat Kalashnikova 1947 goud was produced first at Izhevsk, not the "Kalashnikov weapons factory" PR flaks never get it right, do they?

 

[OEF_VET]

Fort Benning School for Wayward Boys, circa 1989-90. When I went thru Basic Training (the first time - I got out and went back in), they let us hold a couple AK's for all of about 5 minutes. Fire it? Yeah, right. We were U.S. Army Infantry trainees, why would we need to know how to operate an AK-47?

 

[Dave R]

"We got to fire a few of them in Iraq, but we weren't able to actually spend some time to learn just how accurate it is compared to our weapons system.

And they never answered that burning question. How accurate is it compared to our weapons system? It would be fun to see the USMC weigh in on AR vs. Ak.

 

[AK-74me]

Dave R I know I am wondering the same, it is like you can almost hear it getting ready to come off the tip of his tongue. " I love the Ak, lets trash the M16"

 

[horge]

Yes, I wish they'd commented officially on it (AK 47 vs. M16/M4)
That would set off another one of those
reliability/penetration vs. accuracy/controllability flamefests...
and I just love breaking out the marshmallows.

 

[chris in va]

Cracks me up at the range...the guys with the hopped-up $1500 AR-15's always fiddling with the mechanism while my friend and I laid down well over 600 rounds of Wolf through his polymer AK with zero problems. We actually had to stop every 100 rounds or so as the stock got so damn hot.

 

[Justin]

I've had far more jams with less overall rounds downrange out of Kalashnikov-style rifles than out of AR15's.

 

[50 Freak]

Cracks me up at the range...the guys with the hopped-up $1500 AR-15's always fiddling with the mechanism while my friend and I laid down well over 600 rounds of Wolf through his polymer AK with zero problems. We actually had to stop every 100 rounds or so as the stock got so damn hot

I've got to agree guys. At all the carbine matches I've participated in, the ARs, (mine included) end up jamming once or more. It's got to the point I've decided at the next match, I'm bringing my Mak90. I can't remember when it last jammed.

Funny at the last one, the only two guns that didn't jam once was a SKS and a M1 Garand.

 

[No_Brakes23]

I am more familiar with ARs from my time in the Corps, but I shoot the Saiga AKs with more confidence and consistancy.

And this isn't really that new. Back in '98, my Gunny told me they trained him on the AK-47 and the week-long small arms course in Quantico.

After watching Heartbreak Ridge as a kid, I was a little surprised when I got to bootcamp, and there was no Gunny Highway teaching us about the "preferred weapon of out enemy."

 

[Crosshair]

Considering how accurate my SKS is, I am not surprised that they are impressed with the AK. One thing we have going for us is the fact that most of the bad guy's can't shoot worth crap. Several people I know that came back from Iraq and Afganistan say that most just spray and pray and obviously have very little, if any, marksmanship training. Though now they are relying on IED's more.

 

[amprecon]

I just don't understand why the Marine Corps doesn't beat our "weapons Knowledgeable" government to the punch and issue it's troops AK-47's to begin with. The M-16 is a POS. I'm in Iraq, I see alot of them, I haven't experienced their operation in combat, but from what I've seen and heard talking to the troops first hand at the DFAC's, and being a current proud owner of an AK variant, it's a matter of government pride over the safety of our troops that the M-16 lives on.
Let me say, that if I were a trooper, I'd without question want either an M-14 or an FN-FAL.
The terrain is so open and you can see so far that the M-16 just can't be effective where the targets can be seen. But what do I know?

 

[RevDisk]

I've had far more jams with less overall rounds downrange out of Kalashnikov-style rifles than out of AR15's.

That's actually an impressive feat. How'd ya manage that one?

The only way I learned to kill an AK is fire all tracers on full auto until the barrel starts glowing. "Red means stop."

 

[goalie]

I've had far more jams with less overall rounds downrange out of Kalashnikov-style rifles than out of AR15's.

Wow. While I cannot say that I am overall impressed with the accuracy of the AKs I have used, I can say that when I was in the gulf back in '91 and '92 the AR platform required a magazine in the weapon and good maintenance to ensure reliability, wheras we could pick up AKs and they would fire a magazine even if it had been laying in sand, half buried.

Makes me wonder if you were shooting in nice, pristine range condition, and what AK you were using that was so unreliable???

 

[Pinned&Recessed]

I've had far more jams with less overall rounds downrange out of Kalashnikov-style rifles than out of AR15's.

Me too. I thought I was the only person the the world with a finicky AK.

My AK has the reliability of an MGB, while my AR is as reliable as a Toyota.

I've gotten real good at AK malfunction drills.

 

[InfernoMDM]

You guys are the very few that I have ever heard having issues with there AK. I would love to know what country made your weapons.

Of my short time on this planet I have played with and fired probably 30+ AK's. I have watched at least 40 others fire just fine. However being on the range at a USAF base where clean weapons are a rare thing, I have seen nearly everyone jam at least twice within a 80 round fire.

 

[Dave R]

You guys are the very few that I have ever heard having issues with there AK. I would love to know what country made your weapons.

I'm guessing they're MAADI's.

One of the best AK-lovers threads I saw at AK-47.net was when a guy had just bought his 3rd or 4th AK. A Romanian SAR-1. He was bragging at the range, and one of the guys called him on it. He had bragged that you could drag it through a mud puddle and it would still fire. And it had just rained...So when the guy called him on it, he roped his AK to the back of his pickup truck, and drug it through a big mud puddle. Then shook out the water and fired the full mag downrange. THEN he cleaned it.

Best part, there were lots of pix! Pix of the puddle he drug through, pix of the AK before firing, pix of the inside of the receiver and dust cover after firing, etc.

He got lots of comments calling him evil for trating his AK so bad. He replied that it was all in the name of "science", and that he didn't feel bad for misusing a $300 rifle built by Century Arms.

Great thread.

Ahhh, another great AK post. The thread was titled "how often do you clean your AK?" One poster answered "I was at the range once, and it rained. Does that count?"

I'm sure it was said for effect, rather than truth, but it caused me to spew.

Bet we're veering pretty far, here. To get back on topic, does anyone know of a case where one of our guys picked up an enemy AK in battle and used it?

Didn't think so.

 

[No_Brakes23]

does anyone know of a case where one of our guys picked up an enemy AK in battle and used it?

I have heard several anecdotal stories of guys in Viet Nam doing exactly that.

I will mention that while the Saiga is one of the most reliable rifles I have ever fired, it is picky about magazines, and sometimes some work is required on the magazine. But once a good mag is found, no problems what so ever.

 

[entropy]

Saigas use a slightly different feed setup than AKs, and are more prone to jamming. And they are still extremely reliable. The only time I've seen one jam was due to ammo. Santa Barbra wouldn't function a freind's .308 Saiga. We had to manually cycle the action for each round. Worked flawlessly with Israeli, South African, Australian, Lake City, and his own handloads. I had problems with 9mm Santa Barbra functioning my Kel-Tec carbine, also.

 

[Onmilo]

I have a Maadi AKM, it has been totally reliable but it won't group better than 8" at 100 meters with off the shelf ammunition.
Finnish Lapua will group 5-6" at the same range but I'm hording my supply.

I think the Romanian rifles have the worst reputation for reliability though some have no problems.
I knew a Croatian expatriate who referred to Romanian AKM rifles as "The droopy barrel gun."
It seems that when these guys fired long full automatic bursts in the Romanian rifles the barrels would droop from the heat.
He felt the Yugoslavian rifles and the Bulgarian rifles were the best AKs made, even better than the Russian rifles.

I shot Chinese and Russian AKM rifles during familiarization.
Qualified Sharpshooter with a Russian AKM.
No malfunctions that I can remember, and less than stellar accuracy during paper target sight in.

If I had my choice, and I do, I would, and do, choose something besides an AKM for my personal weapon.

I would really like to shoot some of the new Russian AK-100 series rifles, these are supposed to be very, very good weapons.
Far better than the worn out, battlefield relics we used.
Maybe someday I'll make a vacation trip to Russia and do just that.

 

[ny32182]

My "AK" says "made in Russia" on the side, and it has malfunctiond more times (once) than all my ARs combined. I've also seen plenty of cheaper SAR-1s/Chinese/etc AKs at the range that couldn't make it through a mag.

My VEPR runs like a champ; so do my ARs. That doesn't mean there aren't bad examples of each out there. As far as actually hitting targets at any range, its much easier for me to do with an AR. As far as accuracy goes, there is no comparison. imo.

There is never, ever going to be one rifle that *everyone* loves above all others. Different people are going to have their different preferences, and that is just how its going to be. Should our troops be able to put an AK into action in an emergency situation? Of course. It just makes sense to know as much about your enemy as possible. Again, imho.

 

[TheDutchman]

Never had my RRA Entry Tactical jam or hicup just runs and runs. Seen a Bushy choke, a Israeli Galil, couple AK's ,a Daewoo, HK 91, a original FN FAL and a few other types of rifles.

 

[Justin]

You guys are the very few that I have ever heard having issues with there AK. I would love to know what country made your weapons.

Norinco, China. Best trigger I've ever felt in an AK, but that doesn't make up for the sub-par accuracy.