Seeking Clarification on AR Pistol Builds

[Skylerbone]

I have a number of stripped lowers on hand with the intention of getting my kids involved in building their own ARs. I realize some of the kids, I have 6, will opt for colorful or unique receivers meaning there will be leftovers. Realizing I could always use more ARs I’m considering a pistol build to include a brace.

I understand that if originally assembled as a pistol, the lower can later be reconfigured as a rifle and returned to a pistol at any time so long as a rifle stock is not retrofitted before removing the pistol length barreled upper. This leads to what needs clarifying:

First, all mentions of the above discuss “registering” the receiver as a pistol first. Was that portion done at my FFL as part of the 4473 or is there a separate form that must be filled out (my State does not mandate registering firearms).

Second, should I build all of the lowers as pistols to protect my children’s ability to swap configurations in the future? I suppose the simplest thing here would be to buy each of them a second stripped lower but I’m on the hook for 6 builds beyond my own so money does at some point become a limitation. If so, as I understand it, I would simply need a pistol receiver extension to be affixed to each otherwise complete lower.

As no time restriction exists I imagine an immediate swap should be legal and I need only purchase one pistol length tube for the present time (I intend for all of them to configure these as rifles with 16” or longer barrels until such time as they legally take possession from me).

Appreciate any guidance on these issues so as to stay legal and thank you in advance.

 

[adcoch1]

Assemble each lower now with the pistol tube then take a pic with a date stamp. Nobody could argue against that. Also, if you bought them as new stripped lowers they are an "other firearm" on the 4473, so no designation of pistol or rifle.

 

[adcoch1]

Gratuitous pic of ar15 pistol I assembled tonight. 300 blk. 10.5" stainless barrel.

 

[Varminterror]

The 4473, by law, should have been completed as “other” when the transfer happened. Federally, there is no “registering” the lower then as a pistol or rifle once assembled. Your individual state may vary on requirements or legality for semi autos or AR pistols, and I don’t have enough interest to search every state - but as far as the ATF is concerned, a stripped lower, transferred as “other,” then assembled as a pistol can always on the honor system be assembled back into a pistol at your volition.

I do assemble all of mine as pistols first, take a photo for record.

 

[MistWolf]

First, all mentions of the above discuss “registering” the receiver as a pistol first. Was that portion done at my FFL as part of the 4473 or is there a separate form that must be filled out (my State does not mandate registering firearms).

Unless required otherwise by your local jurisdiction, receivers are to be listed as "OTHER" on the Form 4473 by Federal regulations. There is no other federal form to be filled out.

One state that requires the sale of a receiver to be listed as "Pistol" or "Longarm" is California. I believe all firearm sales in California are required to be registered with their Department of Justice (DOJ).

If any of your receivers are from ARs originally sold as complete rifles, they cannot be used to build pistols.

Second, should I build all of the lowers as pistols to protect my children’s ability to swap configurations in the future?

The simplest answer is, yes.

...as I understand it, I would simply need a pistol receiver extension to be affixed to each otherwise complete lower.

Not necessary. You can have an AR pistol with a carbine or rifle receiver extension. The SBA3 arm brace uses a carbine RE. What you cannot do is install a rifle stock while the AR is configured as a pistol.

...I intend for all of them to configure these as rifles with 16” or longer barrels...

Why? Build the ARs as pistols with arm braces and let the kids have fun. Maybe build them with dedicated 22 rimfire pistol uppers first.

 

[someguy2800]

Why? Build the ARs as pistols with arm braces and let the kids have fun. Maybe build them with dedicated 22 rimfire pistol uppers first.

In some places you cannot posses a handgun without supervision until 18.

 

[someguy2800]

The 4473, by law, should have been completed as “other” when the transfer happened. Federally, there is no “registering” the lower then as a pistol or rifle once assembled. Your individual state may vary on requirements or legality for semi autos or AR pistols, and I don’t have enough interest to search every state - but as far as the ATF is concerned, a stripped lower, transferred as “other,” then assembled as a pistol can always on the honor system be assembled back into a pistol at your volition.

This is how it was explained to me by my FFL who specializes in AR's

 

[Skylerbone]

Confirmed the 4473s did list “other”. I’ll be sure to take pictures of the completed pistols to include the build date, and good to know on the RE as I imagined arm braces were attached via a set screw on pistol extension, thought being a rifle stock would not lock onto it and could not be easily added without swapping extensions.

While the balance of a pistol vs rifle/carbine would better suit youngsters I’m a bit hesitant about the thought of them controlling a shorter barrel or shouldering a brace. What can be discerned about the legality of doing so is rather muddled online, depending on the crowd you talk to. I might run that one by the club president to get his thoughts on the matter since we’ll be using their range for practice.

 

[MistWolf]

I've had an AR pistol since the arm brace first came out. The kids love it. It's their favorite AR to shoot. I've never gotten so much as a dirty look from anyone.

The shorty ARs are not much shorter than a chipmunk. I find if the kids cannot control an AR pistol with a brace, they certainly cannot control an AR carbine with a 16" barrel. Just be there when they're shooting to give them the supervision they need and they'll do well. They'll remember what you teach.

 

[someguy2800]

I recall reading that it is a big no no to build a pistol AR with a carbine buffer tube. Reason being that a carbine stock can be easily put on so you would be in constructive possession of an SBR. A pistol buffer tube has no provisions for mounting a carbine stock so you can have both and not be in constructive possession.

Another thing to note is that according to KAK a brace cannot be mounted with a length of pull of 13.5" or greater.

This is my 9mm AR pistol with kak brace. I set the brace at 13.25" LOP and drilled a dimple in the tube for the set screw to make sure it cannot slide back for any reason.

 

[MistWolf]

I recall reading that it is a big no no to build a pistol AR with a carbine buffer tube.

If that were true, lowers sold with a carbine RE and a rifle stock would have to be listed as "rifle" on the form 4473.

The BATF has said the RE isn't what makes an AR a longarm or a pistol.

 

[someguy2800]

If that were true, lowers sold with a carbine RE and a rifle stock would have to be listed as "rifle" on the form 4473.

The BATF has said the RE isn't what makes an AR a longarm or a pistol.

Do you have a reference to where they stated that? I would be interested in reading the wording.

I am not usually a worry wart but one needs to be careful. The below would just as easily apply to having an AR15 with a pistol upper, carbine RE and carbine stock in your possession.

https://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/

 

[MistWolf]

For further clarification, search for the law suit Thompson Center brought against the BATF concerning this subject. BATF was claiming the kits T/C was selling that let owners change their pistols to rifles and back again had to be registered as SBRs. T/C disagreed, took the ATF to court and won their case. Bottom line- owners can convert their pistols to rifles and back again so long as, during the process of doing so, the firearm is never in an illegal configuration.

The BATF has released a statement that the RE does not make an AR a pistol or longarm. The three factors that do are-
1) Barrel length
2) Overall length
3) Whether or not it has a shoulder stock

To avoid constructive possession, don't have parts that can only be assembled in a prohibited configuration. For example-
-You have an AR lower equipped with a rifle stock and only a pistol upper. You cannot assemble these parts in a legal configuration. This is constructive possession.
-You have a lower with a rifle stock, a rifle upper and a pistol upper. You can assemble the rifle upper to the rifle lower in a legal configuration. This is NOT constructive possession. However, if you have a gun case with the foam cut out in the shape of an SBR, it can be argued that you have been violating the law or intend to.

Where might you get into trouble with a carbine or rifle RE on your AR pistol? If you also have a rifle stock to fit the RE that has nowhere else to go.

The BATF has released letters on the subject. You'll have to look for it yourself partly because I'm tired of looking it up every time this question comes up but mostly because you need to know how to find them for yourself. Then read them to make sure I'm not just feeding you a line of bull.

Finally, both SB Tactical and Shockwave offer arm braces that require the use of a carbine or A5 RE.

 

[adcoch1]

Well said MistWolf

 

[Skylerbone]

That sounds sensible @MistWolf and I read up on T/C and the suit. What you’ve summarized above jives with 2011-4 from BATFE and I will most certainly opt for carbine extensions.

I did find a subsequent letter addressing the use of REs on firearms not needing them for function like the MP5 where attachment or retrofit of an extension could be considered to be for the express purpose of shoulder firing with or without a stock. Because both the AR pistol and rifle use the extension as a housing for the buffer spring, ATF considers any such (common) extension acceptable.

To clarify my previous post; when I spoke of children not able to “control” an AR pistol, I was meaning without a brace (as in the bare tube configuration is awkward). Part two was whether or not other shooters would be questioning me if I added braces and allowed kids to shoulder them. Having poked around a bit, it also appears a brace may be shouldered.

ATF clarified by cautioning that a brace adjusted such that it cannot be used as “intended” (so long it MUST be shouldered) or removing the retention straps will run a user afoul of NFA but also acknowledged users may shoulder the brace at times. It literally comes down to ergonomics; so long as a brace is not too comfortable, you can shoulder it, just don’t go modifying it.

Perhaps I was being intellectually lazy in my asking because my Google fu has turned up a fair amount of clarification. Thank you all again.

 

[Varminterror]

Trust for you and the kids, SBR a few lowers, live happy!

 

[SamT1]

I’m pretty sure if you get on AtF’s bad side they can raid your home and if you have a hacksaw claim you had bad intentions with it. The law is clear as mud, especially this AR pistol business. I’m leaning towards SBRing a couple lowers to replace some pistols just so I’m not a victum of any future “interpretations”.
I really wish you could do a class like a CHL and get a “NFA liscense” to buy whatever you wish immediately out the door.

 

[Skylerbone]

I wish our legislators would repeal laws that never made sense. As it stands I think @MistWolf has me moving in a different direction; having all of the kids building pistols that, for now, will remain pistols. A bit more expensive yes, but weight and balance wise should work out great.

 

[adcoch1]

Shop around for pistol parts and they aren't that expensive, psa has phenomenal deals on kits, and lots of other companies have great deals on parts. Just shop for a bit and save hundreds of $$

 

[berettaprofessor]

Stag has their AR short-barreled 5.56 (7.5 inches) and 300AAC (8 inch) uppers on sale for $299. They're fantastic quality.