Seems unlikely to find a good load for this

[Mr_Flintstone]

I’m going to put this here since it’s a reloading question that I have.

I’ve had a 20” Henry .357 Big Boy for quite a while, but I’ll admit that I find the idea of a .38 Special (only) lever action kind of interesting. There are a few companies that sell them, but I think they are all Ubertis under the skin. Anyway, I’ve been kicking around the idea of getting one, and found this: https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/1866-sporting-rifle-38-special-24-oct-barrel.html

It’s a 24” 1866 38 Special (only) lever action, and from what I’ve read, uses the older style toggle link, necessitating the use standard pressure ammunition. Now to my question.

I’ve worked up and loaded lots of 38 Special loads for my Henry, and one thing is keeping me from getting something like this. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that regardless of the powder used, bullets from standard pressure 38 Special (especially 158 gr) seem to max out or even start losing velocity after about 16” of barrel. Lots of loads get virtually the same velocity from my 4” Model 19 as the 20” barrel. Even using 2400, IMR4227, and H110 I don’t get nearly the boost in velocity that is predicted in GRT from my Henry. This is kind of supported over at BBTI when looking at 38 Special and other cartridges around the same pressure. What advantage, if any would a 24” barrel provide in this cartridge? If I were to buy one of these, is there a powder that would take more advantage of the longer barrel? I thought about Lil Gun with its longer pressure curve, but there doesn’t seem to be any 38 Special data for that powder at all. Maybe black powder, Pyrodex, or Triple Seven, but i don’t really want to deal with corrosive powders.

I think I may have talked myself out of the idea.

 

[Charlie98]

PCC's have the same problem... something like a 16" barrel with the .45ACP is very nearly a losing proposition. It would benefit far more in a shorter (SBR) barrel.

The idea of a .38SPC rifle with a 24" barrel seems sort of absurd, and particularly when you are locked into standard pressure loads. Using IMR4227 or 2400 would be the only way to maximize that long of a barrel, and the .38SPC case, because of it's low case volume, just isn't ideal for that.

 

[Mostly Lead]

What advantage, if any would a 24” barrel provide in this cartridge?

For the .38 Special pistol cartridge, wouldn't expect there to be any.

If I were to buy one of these, is there a powder that would take more advantage of the longer barrel?

For the .38 Special pistol cartridge, wouldn't expect there to be any...

I think I may have talked myself out of the idea.

There are reasons/justifications for having a rifle that uses pistol cartridges. Don't believe performance is one of them.

 

[Charlie98]

There are reasons/justifications for having a rifle that uses pistol cartridges. Don't believe performance is one of them.

Not quite true. I've got a Marlin 1894 in .41MAG... it certainly does increase the performance, if velocity is your benchmark. More velocity equals more lb/ft of energy, and more range, all else being equal. I use IMR4227 to take advantage of the longer barrel. My standard 215grn cast bullet over 8grn of Unique gives 20% more velocity (1000fps vs 1225fps,) but the 20grn of IMR4227 under that same bullet gives me 50% more velocity (1080fps vs 1530fps) with both of those loads operating at nearly the same pressure (22K psi +/-) That is out of a 20" barrel (vs the 4" revolver barrel,) using a Magnum-length cartridge case. I don't really think the OP's example... that is, a 24" barrel with a standard-length (.38SPC) cartridge case would benefit greatly, however, even when using something like IMR4227... simply because of the case capacity limitations. I would think after all that barrel, even using a slower powder, the FPS increase would be 100-150fps, but much of that depends on what powder is used.

 

[.45Coltguy]

Thinking you'll be better served with the 20" Henry than a 24" anything for .38 spl. Too much barrel.

 

[Frulk]

THR Enabler here: What are you going to use the rifle for? Sounds like it’s not going to be for hunting as you have a .357 for that.

If that’s the case what’s another 100-200 FPS +/- here or there if punching paper or cans/dirt clots or thinning gophers?

I opened the link. Heck of a good looking rifle. I like longer barrels on levers for the sight picture and aesthetics but I don't necessarily like toting them for miles through the backcountry. Link doesn’t give specs on weight. But again, that’s not an issue if you’re not buying it for this purpose.

Sitting at a range bench, on the back porch or camp stool plinking with that soft shooting .38 cal Yellowboy sounds like a lot of fun to me. A few lost FPS due to barrel length would be way down the list of concerns at that point.

 

[.45Coltguy]

THR Enabler here: What are you going to use the rifle for? Sounds like it’s not going to be for hunting as you have a .357 for that.

If that’s the case what’s another 100-200 FPS +/- here or there if punching paper or cans/dirt clots or thinning gophers?

I opened the link. Heck of a good looking rifle. I like longer barrels on levers for the sight picture and aesthetics but I don't necessarily like toting them for miles through the backcountry. Link doesn’t give specs on weight. But again, that’s not an issue if you’re not buying it for this purpose.

Sitting at a range bench, on the back porch or camp stool plinking with that soft shooting .38 cal Yellowboy sounds like a lot of fun to me. A few lost FPS due to barrel length would be way down the list of concerns at that point.

Hmm. Some good plinking points there.^^^

 

[Show Me]

I don't think. I don't suppose. I don't guess. My hand load with titegroup was slower out of 24 inch R92 than 16 inch. It was so quiet I didn't use ears. I can't find which book I wrote it down in but I will

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

What advantage, if any would a 24” barrel provide in this cartridge?

Longer sight base, steadier hold, larger capacity (compared to a revolver) and the “coolness factor” of having a toggle link action rifle.

 

[Bronco72]

Being an enabler also
So that I do not have to switch dies or readjust them I load 38 spl. loads in the mag cases. I am lazy. IMHO get a 24" barreled 357 mag and enjoy the longer sight radius and the miniscule recoil with the reduced loads!
90% of my shooting is with mild loads and shoot the mags just to remember what they are all about!

 

[Varminterror]

What advantage, if any would a 24” barrel provide in this cartridge?

You shouldn't have bought a 24" 38spcl on the premise ballistic superiority. The longer barrels handle well to stabilize on target and have a longer sight radius for improved precision, that's their draw.

 

[Soonerpesek]

You shouldn't have bought a 24" 38spcl on the premise ballistic superiority. The longer barrels handle well to stabilize on target and have a longer sight radius for improved precision, that's their draw.

He didn't buy it yet, he's researching it ..........................

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

A slower burn powder would help too with a long barrel. I clocked some 44 mag loads from my CVA hunter in the 1600's with blue dot.

 

[243winxb]

regardless of the powder used, bullets from standard pressure 38 Special (especially 158 gr) seem to max out or even start losing velocity after about 16” of barrel

A jacketed 158 gr bullet may not exit the barrel? No 38 spec rifle data at Hodgdon.

 

[Show Me]

A slower burn powder would help too with a long barrel. I clocked some 44 mag loads from my CVA hunter in the 1600's with blue dot.

2400 is your huckleberry. In 38sp I use xx.x and it's snappy. (.357 firearms only) nice to use old throw away brass and not pick it up

 

[.45Coltguy]

Whew! 2400 in .38 spl loads? Zounds! That would be snappy.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

2400 is your huckleberry. In 38sp I use xx.x and it's snappy. (.357 firearms only) nice to use old throw away brass and not pick it up

I have loaded 38 special with 2400 for 140 and 158 gr jacketed bullets. Standard pressure loads maxed as far as GRT says is safe for the cartridge with the 158s get just about 1,100 fps from my 20" Henry and the 140s get almost, but not quite 1,200 fps. Maxed +P 158s gets about another 50 fps or so. +P 140s get about another 80-90 fps. Nothing to sneeze at, but the spread is pretty big unless you use magnum primers.

You can get into 38-44 or FBI loads, but I think they are way over any SAAMI Specs for 38 Special.

 

[Rule3]

If you want more velocity out of the longer barrel why not load some 38 special +P with lighter weight bullets?

 

[Soonerpesek]

If you want more velocity out of the longer barrel why not load some 38 special +P with lighter weight bullets?

It’s a 24” 1866 38 Special (only) lever action, and from what I’ve read, uses the older style toggle link, necessitating the use standard pressure ammunition. Now to my question.

Said he needs to use STANDARD pressure rounds..

 

[Rule3]

Said he needs to use STANDARD pressure rounds..

Also says to not use reloads as well like any other firearms
So therefore there is not answer to his question as this is all about non commercial reloaded ammo!
Most +P ammo is the max of standard loads, Heck just using a 110 gr vs a 158 gr bullet is gonna have more velocity.

https://www.uberti-usa.com/sites/default/files/content/media/manuals/2022-08/1866_rifle.pdf

Use ONLY COMMERCIALLY loaded cartridges that have been loaded in accor-
dance with SAAMI-C.I.P. standards.

 

[.45Coltguy]

Hmm. OP's question is in the "Handloading-Reloading" threads here regarding standard pressure rounds for .38spl. Most prudent handloaders load to SAMMI specs, so, his question and Soonerpesek response are valid.

 

[mdi]

My question is; how much, if any, velocity loss would there be from 08" "extra" barrel length? A significant, noticeable difference or just theory?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

My question is; how much, if any, velocity loss would there be from 08" "extra" barrel length? A significant, noticeable difference or just theory?

In my experience? Theory - and not unfounded but also not really provable using average reloader tools. Bullets do slow down as friction and heat build while gas pressure decreases but without being able to measure directly, we’re right back to measuring muzzle velocity and guessing about potential outcomes.

I run the same wadcutter target loads in the H&R HandiRifle as in my snubbies. They somehow manage to poke holes in the target so

How fast the bullet would have been going IF…?
That’s a game for the worshippers of the mighty regressive analytics software dogs to play.

“Well the computer says… so it must be true.”

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

My question is; how much, if any, velocity loss would there be from 08" "extra" barrel length? A significant, noticeable difference or just theory?

I don’t know. Unfortunately I don’t have all those different length barrels. I do know that a 158 gr bullet with a max load of fast pistol powders like Titegroup is nearly 20% faster from a 4” barrel than a 20” barrel, and Unique is virtually the same. Exactly how much of a decrease and where it happens in the barrel would just be speculation on my part. Slow powders do better, but not what I should get. I don’t know if it comes from less acceleration than expected, or acceleration to a point and then deceleration. I wish I was rich enough to have 16”, 18”, 20”, and 24” length barrels so I could test them all, but that many is out of my price range.

 

[mdi]

Be fun testing to find out, if I had both barrel lengths. Running identical loads over my chrony...