Selecting a competition seating die

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I'm wanting to reduce the runout on .223, .308 and 30-06 ammunition reloaded on a progressive press. To help with this, I've decided to go with a competition seater die instead of a standard seating die. The press I'm using is an RCBS Pro 2000. I am NOT loading cast bullets with this. Only FMJ ball type bullets and later on I'll be loading match bullets and hunting bullets.

Here's the candidates:

1. RCBS Gold Medal Match Series Bushing Seater Die. This die does NOT require an extended shell holder, hence my interest in it for the progressive. If you have experience with this die and Forster/Redding as well, please leave comments about your experience.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/76...match-series-bushing-seater-die-223-remington

2. Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater die

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/665744/forster-ultra-micrometer-seater-die-223-remington

3. Redding Competition Seater Die

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/531039/redding-competition-seater-die-223-remington

I know from my research the Redding is a highly recommended die, but is the most expensive of the three and if I can get good results from one of the other two, I'd like to save a little money. The RCBS has a window to drop the bullet in, which would be handy for me with the nerve damage in my left them from an old injury and for use on a progressive press. The Forster is the cheapest of the three by more than enough money to pay for shipping and comes highly recommended as well.

I'd love to get poll responses from folks that have actually used these three dies and comments as well.

Thank you,

Dave

 

[David Wile]

Hey Dave,

I never had a competition seating die in the three brands you mentioned, but about 35 years ago I did buy a Lyman competition die set. The seater die had a micrometer adjustment, a "window" in which you could place your bullet for seating, and a sliding bushing or whatever you call it which would hold the bullet in place while it was being seated. That is the only seating die I ever had like that, so I don't know if it is similar to what you are talking about.

The die set was in .243 caliber, and while my rifle was not a bench rest rifle, it was a pretty good shooter, and I regularly had half inch 100 yard groups back then with match bullets and each powder charge weighed. To tell the truth, I was not able to tell the difference between my cartridges loaded with the competition seating die and cartridges loaded with a regular seating die. I thought the competition die might tighten up my groups a bit, but after a summer of trying to prove the difference, I simply was not able to do so.

After giving up on the cometition die giving me smaller groups, I continued to use the die for ease of seating bullets through the "window." I no longer have my .243 rifle nor my .243 die set. If I did still have them, however, I know I would no longer be able to shoot the groups I did then. My wife can no longer bowl as well as she did years ago, and I can no longer shoot as well as I once did.

I don't know if a competition die will help you reduce your groups, but I have seen you mention before about your nerve damage, and you may just like the die with the "window" for that reason as you mentioned. I hope things work well for you.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I have tried the RCBC competion seating die and ended up buying the forstner micrometer die to use instead. This was 20 yrs ago. They have probably changed by then.

I was also machining out my own bullets so I don't think it will really compare to what you are doing now. I was shooting 1/4" to 1/2" groups at 100yds off my elbows from a bench then with my bullets out of a Browning Model 81 long action 30-06 steel receiver rifle.

I had really good luck with the Forstner dies but really didn't give the RCBS dies much of chance because the RCBS seating die didn't have a mic on it at that time. I fell for the "bells and whistles" of the mic.

A lot of time has passed since then so I can't really give you an accurate accessment of the two now.
That's my experience of the two out of the three choices you listed.

 

[Canuck-IL]

You can't use the RCBS on a progressive - it requires a custom shell holder which comes with it ... single stage only.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/173612/rcbs-competition-seater-die-223-remington
/Bryan

 

[zeke]

Own and use at least one example of all three brands. The RCBS window die was not much of an advantage over a regular Reddiing seating die. The Redding comp seater is well worth it for seating bullets straighter. Bought Foester examples in calibers Redding neglected and it is a significant improvement over the RCBS die and very close to the Redding , while less expensive.

Lots of discussion lately on bullet interference fit. It seems the tighter the fit, the harder to seat the bullet straight. For most 223 and 308 used now, i keep the case necks at the un-expanded dia, and just use the Comp seater die to seat Boat tails.

It ain't nothing but an opinion, but it works for me.

Ex Conodequinet Creeker, and Ye OLd Ale House Drinker

 

[Walkalong]

I have no experience with the RCBS mentioned, but the Forster and the Redding dies are top notch.

I am not sure the RCBS will work on a progressive. Doesn't it use an extended shell holder?

 

[USSR]

I have 3 of the Redding Competition Seating Dies (.308, .30-06, 6.5x55), and am extremely pleased with them.

Don

 

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

For those who keep mentioning the RCBS competition die that requires an extended shell holder and won't work in a progressive, the above die is NOT that die. The Gold Medal is a completely different die.

 

[Walkalong]

I just looked it up. It seems like the same die with an extension for the seater plug so it does not need the extended shell holder and so it will work on progressives. Still no experience with them. I would think they would be good, but don't know.

 

[P-32]

I like RCBS dies and they have served me well. I shoot a AR, 308 M-1Garand and a 30-06 M-1Garand in match settings. RCBS doesn’t have good match dies in my opinion.

irst I tried Redding match dies in 223. The Redding seating die is similar to the Forester. The problem with the Redding is it won’t stand up to seating repeated compressed rounds. (well documented) I shoot 77 gr. SMK’s over Reloder 15 and every single one of these are compressed.

For the 223 size die I came up with a Hornaday match bushing die. I can adjusted neck tension by using a different bushing. Since I don’t crimp SMK’s, it works well for me. I also went to the Forster seating die and have not regretted doing so.

Based on my discovery and price difference, I went with Forster across the board with the exception of a Hornaday Match Bushing size die in 308 and 223. The 308 die has been replaced by a Forester 308 NM die.

For the ’06, I got the Forester match die set. I like the Forester Ultra seat die because they are built like a tank but work very well. I like them so much I bought a Forester match seating die for 30-30. How is that for being ate up. I’m working on a lever gun silhouette match and figure every bit helps.

My vote goes to the Hornaday match bushing size die followed with a Forester Ultra Match seat die.

 

[gamestalker]

I've only owned and used the RCBS with the loading window, micrometer adjustment, and the bullet allignment bushing. I really like their set up, and imagine it's as effective as the other's on the market.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Will you even see an advantage when using an expensive seating die along with a progressive press? I'm not stating fact, I'm asking if it's even worth the money? I would think you would get the most advantage of the competition dies when used with a single stage press instead of a progressive press. Sounds like a waste of money to me... (a lot of money)

 

[P-32]

ArchAngel, Good point on the progressive and I agree with you. I load match ammo on a single stage "O" press. I somehow missed the fact he was using a progressive.

On the other hand I know guys who use a progressive to load thier match ammo up to and including 308. I never asked what dies they use.

 

[PowderMonkey]

Once again - the die linked here is not the Gold Medal Match Comp Seater Die.

The die above requires the extended shellholder - cannot be used on a progressive.

Here is the link to the Gold Medal Match Comp Seater Die that *CAN* be used on a progressive. -> http://www.midwayusa.com/product/763205/rcbs-gold-medal-match-series-bushing-seater-die-223-remington

I use an RCBS Gold Medal Match Comp Seater for .308 and LOVE it...

 

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

"Will you even see an advantage when using an expensive seating die along with a progressive press?"

Apparently the guy over on ultimatereloader.com did. It was enough of an improvement to make it worth while to me as an improvement in performance of my shorter range loads.

"I'm not stating fact, I'm asking if it's even worth the money? I would think you would get the most advantage of the competition dies when used with a single stage press instead of a progressive press."

Since I own both a progressive and an excellent single stage press, I can use the seater in both. Using it in one does not preclude using it in the other. Overall improvement in the ammunition is the goal, no matter where it is loaded.

"Sounds like a waste of money to me... (a lot of money)"

Depends on your point of view. If you're only interested in improving the quality of your single stage ammunition and consider all progressively loaded ammunition to be blasting ammo, that may be true. But I suspect it'll make enough of a difference to be worthwhile to me, as I want ALL the ammunition I assemble to be as accurate as possible. But I also want to be able to have and shoot certain calibers in quantity. Since dies and equipment amortize over the years of reloading, initial cost is less important to me than quality of ammunition made. Others with other demands in their life might have a different perspective.

 

[Walkalong]

Once again

I do not see where anyone was confused again. They merely mentioned they used the other style, which is virtually the same die, and that it worked well.

ArchAngelCD, yes, the Redding & Forster competition seaters do work well on my LNL. I cannot speak for others. It is no different than a single stage. The is a little wiggle room in the shell plate allowing the round to center up in the dies. From my tests they work. Do note that none will work with crappy brass in any press.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

ArchAngelCD, yes, the Redding & Forster competition seaters do work well on my LNL. I cannot speak for others. It is no different than a single stage. The is a little wiggle room in the shell plate allowing the round to center up in the dies. From my tests they work. Do note that none will work with crappy brass in any press.

Thanks for the info AC, I appreciate it...

 

[rskent]

I use a Forster for my 223 match loads. It works well enough for me.
How much improvement are you hoping to get? As much as possible, I know.
How much run out are you getting now? What are you using to measure it?
What amount of run out do you think is acceptable?
At what point do you say a round has too much run out and is just practice ammo?
Just asking
Steve

 

[Walkalong]

Would I load for my Bench gun for competition on the LNL? Heck no, but then one loses by a few thousandths in BR sometimes.

With the best dies, well prepped quality brass, and a little care, you can load some ammo exceeding the limits of most guns and shooters on the LNL.

This same setup is going to satisfy many "target", "varmint", etc, shooters.

In Benchrest we cut absolutely no corners, starting with the guns. I wish you were close, I would let you shoot my Benchrest rifle and get an idea what a gun can do, and even learn a bit about what wind can do in a measly 100 yards. It is eye opening I assure you. It was for me, and I was used to shooting my heavy barreled Sako that would shoot well under 1/2" at 100 yards for me. It was a real eye opener when I got involved with Benchrest. If you didn't shoot a "one" or a "two" at 100 yards, it was all your fault, not the guns, not the load, you, and you'd better be shooting "threes" or "fours" with an occasional "screamer" at 200.

Any conditions with no "fliers" or excuses. That is what made Benchrest so exhilarating at times and so frustrating at times. They told me if I was going to shoot Bechrest I was going to eat a lot of humble pie along the way, and they were right, but when it all comes together (*), it is richly rewarding. You beat the best, and with no excuses.

Can you tell I miss it?

*