Gunnutz13
Member
My favorite...
...is the Winchester Black Talons, followed closely by the Federal Hydrashoks
...is the Winchester Black Talons, followed closely by the Federal Hydrashoks
Self-Defense .45 Ammo
- Thread starter The Dutchman
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Missouri Mule
Member
With modern technology and the level of competition for your business amongst the ammo makers these days there are a lot of very good choices.
I personally use CorBon +P , Gold Dot +P, Hydra Shoks, and Golden Sabres.
Right now my favorites happen to be the Gold Dot 200+p in .45acp, 124+p in 9mm and 90 gr HP in .380acp.
That being said There are times when I carry good old fashioned hard ball.
I personally use CorBon +P , Gold Dot +P, Hydra Shoks, and Golden Sabres.
Right now my favorites happen to be the Gold Dot 200+p in .45acp, 124+p in 9mm and 90 gr HP in .380acp.
That being said There are times when I carry good old fashioned hard ball.
Bacon
Member
The link BluesBear provided takes you to a good guy to buy from. He communicates and delivers a good product.
I'm just now trying out the Ranger ammo but have liked the Speer GoldDot 200gr. +P for a long time.
Steve
I'm just now trying out the Ranger ammo but have liked the Speer GoldDot 200gr. +P for a long time.
Steve
I think the best load will depend on the length of barrel on your .45; in a short 3" compact 1911 you might want a bullet that performs at a lower velocity than one that you might use in a full sized Government Model.
I'm currently carrying 230 Hydra Shoks.
I'm currently carrying 230 Hydra Shoks.
Ranger Ammo here
If you are looking at getting some Ranger ammo I have a few boxes for sell.
9mm - 40sw - 45acp - 12ga
just shoot me an email.
[email protected]
If you are looking at getting some Ranger ammo I have a few boxes for sell.
9mm - 40sw - 45acp - 12ga
just shoot me an email.
[email protected]
Chris Pinkleton
Member
I feel fine with just about any brand of 230 grain JHP. I use the Gold Dots now, and I'd probably use the Remington Golden Sabers if they weren't availible. I use 230gr., not only for it's slight edge in penetration, but also because it tends to hit closer to the point of aim in fixed sighted guns than lighter bullets.
There is ZERO objective data that I know of on "Extreme Shock" ammo. It looks like Walter Mitty type stuff to me. The same goes for Glaser, MagSafe, and all the other "exotics." (There is data on the latter two, but they're still not for serious work -- underpenetration city) This is not the stuff that any elite police or military units are using.
Wanna know why? Go here and read a few articles: http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
The various "Talon" bullets are really just very middle-of-the-road JHPs. No magic in 'em. Most current JHPs beat the heck out of the old-style Talon, according to Doc GKR over at Tactical Forums. Mostly, folks who still keep 'em for defensive ammo seemed to have bought the media hype about their special "cop-killing power" -- which was a pile of bovine excreta to begin with.
There is ZERO objective data that I know of on "Extreme Shock" ammo. It looks like Walter Mitty type stuff to me. The same goes for Glaser, MagSafe, and all the other "exotics." (There is data on the latter two, but they're still not for serious work -- underpenetration city) This is not the stuff that any elite police or military units are using.
Wanna know why? Go here and read a few articles: http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
The various "Talon" bullets are really just very middle-of-the-road JHPs. No magic in 'em. Most current JHPs beat the heck out of the old-style Talon, according to Doc GKR over at Tactical Forums. Mostly, folks who still keep 'em for defensive ammo seemed to have bought the media hype about their special "cop-killing power" -- which was a pile of bovine excreta to begin with.
Bostonterrier97
Member
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2002
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- 211
I like Remington Golden Sabers.
wolf
Member
demand has made the quality of products increase and has created sub-catagories and that market may be refined but it exists
top selling quality brands stay close to each other in most aspects or dont survive..selection of a brand for me is personal choice..it could be the name, color, or ad slogan..if all brands were available and the need arose...im going to use what i can load first..until then..speer gold dots 230 hp work very well in my beretta and in my head...
wolf
top selling quality brands stay close to each other in most aspects or dont survive..selection of a brand for me is personal choice..it could be the name, color, or ad slogan..if all brands were available and the need arose...im going to use what i can load first..until then..speer gold dots 230 hp work very well in my beretta and in my head...
wolf
www.doubletapammo.com
DoubleTap 200gr GDHP @ 1125fps are my current favorite.
All of them perform well in Denim covered 10% ordinance gelatin, though.
DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"
-Mike
DoubleTap 200gr GDHP @ 1125fps are my current favorite.
All of them perform well in Denim covered 10% ordinance gelatin, though.
DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"
-Mike
Sir Aardvark
Member
I use Winchester SXT in .45ACP and .40S&W.
The guy I took my CCW and other self defense classes from is a Huntington Beach, CA Police Dept. SWAT member and he highly recommends the stuff.
SXT's are essentially the same thing that the "Black Talons" are. The only differences are: 1) they don't have the little "Talons" that are exposed when the "petals" peel back when they expand in the wound channel; 2) they are not black; 3) they do not have the negative media hype that caused Winchester to drop the "Black Talon" name.
You might think that SXT stands for "Supreme eXpansion Technology", but it really means "Same eXact Thing".
The guy I took my CCW and other self defense classes from is a Huntington Beach, CA Police Dept. SWAT member and he highly recommends the stuff.
SXT's are essentially the same thing that the "Black Talons" are. The only differences are: 1) they don't have the little "Talons" that are exposed when the "petals" peel back when they expand in the wound channel; 2) they are not black; 3) they do not have the negative media hype that caused Winchester to drop the "Black Talon" name.
You might think that SXT stands for "Supreme eXpansion Technology", but it really means "Same eXact Thing".
Father Knows Best
Member
Winchester RA45T
Bought a case (500 rounds) for $175 about a year ago. Once a month, I shoot a half box of it -- emptying the three mags +1 I keep loaded (I use cheap PMC 230 FMJ for most practice). I've got about 9 months' supply left, assuming no goblin encounters, at which point I need to decide whether to stick with it or try something new.
I read an article recently about a RN with some sort of polymer inside it that squishes out on impact. Supposedly, it gives just as good of expansion in gelatin as HP, and much better through clothing because it doesn't have a nose cavity that can get plugged up. Anyone remember what that stuff is?
Bought a case (500 rounds) for $175 about a year ago. Once a month, I shoot a half box of it -- emptying the three mags +1 I keep loaded (I use cheap PMC 230 FMJ for most practice). I've got about 9 months' supply left, assuming no goblin encounters, at which point I need to decide whether to stick with it or try something new.
I read an article recently about a RN with some sort of polymer inside it that squishes out on impact. Supposedly, it gives just as good of expansion in gelatin as HP, and much better through clothing because it doesn't have a nose cavity that can get plugged up. Anyone remember what that stuff is?
BluesBear
member
FKB, There's two,
Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket)
Glaser Pow'R Ball
Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket)
Glaser Pow'R Ball
Hypnogator
Member
I carry 230-gr Hydra-Shoks -- They're 100% reliable in my Taurus PT-145.
I wouldn't be afraid of 200-230 gr Gold Dots, Golden Sabres, Hornaday XTPs or Ranger-Ts. There really isn't that much difference between any of the premium rounds.
I've fired a limited number of Taurus 185-gr loads with the all-copper Barnes bullets. They function reliably, but I'm just not convinced the lighter load has the oomph of the 200-230 gr loads.
Haven't tried EFMJs, but would like to. The Cor-Bon Powr-Ball sounds interesting but I still haven't seen any in 200-gr.
I wouldn't be afraid of 200-230 gr Gold Dots, Golden Sabres, Hornaday XTPs or Ranger-Ts. There really isn't that much difference between any of the premium rounds.
I've fired a limited number of Taurus 185-gr loads with the all-copper Barnes bullets. They function reliably, but I'm just not convinced the lighter load has the oomph of the 200-230 gr loads.
Haven't tried EFMJs, but would like to. The Cor-Bon Powr-Ball sounds interesting but I still haven't seen any in 200-gr.
Bacon
Member
Speer 200 gr. +P Gold Dot
moxie
Member
Depends on application. For indoor use, Glasers
provide great stopping power but are less likely to penetrate drywall, etc., so they limit "collateral damage" which is an important consideration.
Outdoors, it depends on the gun. Short barrel autos and snub 625s benefit from the extra velocity of the Rem 185+P Golden Sabers. Full size autos and 4-5" barrel 625s can use the 230 grain bullets to advantage. The best IMHO of these are the Federal Hydra-Shok and the Remington Golden Saber.
Of course you have to apply the general rule of thumb that the ammo has to feed and fire 100% in your gun, so you have to spend some money and fire the round you pick enough times to confirm this. This can be expensive, especially with Glasers. But the peace of mind you get after you do the testing in your gun will be worth it. The ogive on the modern bullets such as Golden Saber, Hydra-Shok, and Glaser more closely approximates that of the FMJ ammo, so they tend to function better than some of the older efforts such as the "flying ashtray."
provide great stopping power but are less likely to penetrate drywall, etc., so they limit "collateral damage" which is an important consideration.
Outdoors, it depends on the gun. Short barrel autos and snub 625s benefit from the extra velocity of the Rem 185+P Golden Sabers. Full size autos and 4-5" barrel 625s can use the 230 grain bullets to advantage. The best IMHO of these are the Federal Hydra-Shok and the Remington Golden Saber.
Of course you have to apply the general rule of thumb that the ammo has to feed and fire 100% in your gun, so you have to spend some money and fire the round you pick enough times to confirm this. This can be expensive, especially with Glasers. But the peace of mind you get after you do the testing in your gun will be worth it. The ogive on the modern bullets such as Golden Saber, Hydra-Shok, and Glaser more closely approximates that of the FMJ ammo, so they tend to function better than some of the older efforts such as the "flying ashtray."
I hate to disagree with you Moxie, but in the Glaser shootings I saw, the subjects were hit multiple times, with very little effect. The rat-hole like wounds look quite awesome, but the lack of penetration precluded hitting anything deep enough to do the job.
The 230 Grain Golden Saber's and Hydra Shok's are both good choices, although Federal's newer 230 Grain HST is an improvement over the old Hydra Shok design.
The 230 Grain Golden Saber's and Hydra Shok's are both good choices, although Federal's newer 230 Grain HST is an improvement over the old Hydra Shok design.
Mongo the Mutterer
Member
Some people have told me that the Ranger T-series is excellent however its only available for law enforcement.
You can find the Ranger line available to the general public if you look around. I see it in the Shotgun News at reasonable prices fairly often.
As for my recommendation, I prefer ball ammo. I'm a homicide prosecutor (about to resume a murder trial in about 15 minutes) and I've never seen a handgun round expand when it only contacted human tissues. This includes a Ranger Talon 9mm round that was used to execute a young woman. She was lying on a bed, the CZ pistol was placed close enough to her chest to leave a burn pattern on her skin, and the bullet went through her heart, exited her back, and was stopped by the blanket she was lying on.
The bullet did not expand at all and suffered only minor defects to its shape.
This is not the exception to the rule. This is the rule.
I've seen stats from the FBI that claim that hp bullets at handgun velocities expand only 60% of the time. The thing is, I haven't seen it happen ever. My guess is, they are using bullets that exited the body and struck other harder objects (like pavement or bricks) in coming up with the 60% figure.
I prefer heavy fmj rounds because they are more likely to fully penetrate and break bones.
-David
You can find the Ranger line available to the general public if you look around. I see it in the Shotgun News at reasonable prices fairly often.
As for my recommendation, I prefer ball ammo. I'm a homicide prosecutor (about to resume a murder trial in about 15 minutes) and I've never seen a handgun round expand when it only contacted human tissues. This includes a Ranger Talon 9mm round that was used to execute a young woman. She was lying on a bed, the CZ pistol was placed close enough to her chest to leave a burn pattern on her skin, and the bullet went through her heart, exited her back, and was stopped by the blanket she was lying on.
The bullet did not expand at all and suffered only minor defects to its shape.
This is not the exception to the rule. This is the rule.
I've seen stats from the FBI that claim that hp bullets at handgun velocities expand only 60% of the time. The thing is, I haven't seen it happen ever. My guess is, they are using bullets that exited the body and struck other harder objects (like pavement or bricks) in coming up with the 60% figure.
I prefer heavy fmj rounds because they are more likely to fully penetrate and break bones.
-David
Gunsnrovers
Member
The answer is way too subjective. Lots of good choices, but you'll get as many answers as you would if you asked what is the best .45/9mm pistol. The "best" is what that person is using. No one is going to say they choose the 2nd best self defense ammo out there.
My favorite choice would be 12 gauge, but if it's just .45ACP, I like the Hornady TAP in 230gr. I find it very accurate and low flash. Much lower then the Federal and Remington loads I used to use. All my 1911's eat it up flawlessly which is the real issue anyway. The best ammo in the world that won't reliably feed in your .45 won't do you much good.
My favorite choice would be 12 gauge, but if it's just .45ACP, I like the Hornady TAP in 230gr. I find it very accurate and low flash. Much lower then the Federal and Remington loads I used to use. All my 1911's eat it up flawlessly which is the real issue anyway. The best ammo in the world that won't reliably feed in your .45 won't do you much good.
moxie
Member
Elmer,
Unfortunately, or fortunately as the case may be, I've never seen any actual Glaser shootings. I'm basing my input on commentary by Marshall, Sanow, Ayoob and others. I've seen pictures and X-ray images. These all indicate better performance than you have obviously found. They also function just fine and shoot straight out of my guns. Could you share some of your empirical evidence with us? That would be helpful. Also, how has the newer Federal HST design improved upon the Hydra-Shok. I haven't seen anything empirical on that yet. I know it's being flogged as an LE load, which may make it harder to get for us civilians. It also comes in a 230+P version which gets about 100fps more out of it than the standard version or the Hydra-Shok, which could be a benefit. Thanks in advance.
Unfortunately, or fortunately as the case may be, I've never seen any actual Glaser shootings. I'm basing my input on commentary by Marshall, Sanow, Ayoob and others. I've seen pictures and X-ray images. These all indicate better performance than you have obviously found. They also function just fine and shoot straight out of my guns. Could you share some of your empirical evidence with us? That would be helpful. Also, how has the newer Federal HST design improved upon the Hydra-Shok. I haven't seen anything empirical on that yet. I know it's being flogged as an LE load, which may make it harder to get for us civilians. It also comes in a 230+P version which gets about 100fps more out of it than the standard version or the Hydra-Shok, which could be a benefit. Thanks in advance.
I'm no expert on bullet design, so I'm not in a position to tell you how it works, but I have shot it into gelatin quite a bit. In my chrongraphing, the +P was only 50 or so fps faster than the standard 230. ATK's LE website has some quite good data on it. WWW.le.atk.com
Gunsnrovers
Member
Of course ATK wouldn't be biased in their findings....
and I've never seen a handgun round expand when it only contacted human tissues.
Hmmm..
I've seen hundreds.... matter of fact, the vast majority did. I held one in my hand yesterday.
Very strange
Elmer,
what do you do? Do you work in a medical examiner's office? I'd be very interested in your experiences. Please let me know where you have access to these slugs. I'm very curious.
Thanks,
David
Hmmm..
I've seen hundreds.... matter of fact, the vast majority did. I held one in my hand yesterday.
Very strange
Elmer,
what do you do? Do you work in a medical examiner's office? I'd be very interested in your experiences. Please let me know where you have access to these slugs. I'm very curious.
Thanks,
David
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