Selling a gun from your Personal collection?

[SifuGun]

Hello Community, I am not an FFL dealer. I have one i use regularly. Does anyone know if i can make a webpage advertisement (not through Gunbroker or gunsamerica but on a website i have created) for a gun to sell out of my personal collection. If someone was interested in buying it. I'd have them send a money order to my FFL dealer with their required info. So, he/she is buying gun from a federally licensed dealer. Not from me. I would make that clear in my ad. Does anyone see any problem with this. And of course my ffl dealer knows all the rules like "handguns to California, California ar mag law, the list goes on right". Well that is what i pay him for, right. Okay, lets hear what you have to say.

 

[rule303]

You can sell it, it does not have to go through your FFL, but will need to be shipped to an FFL. Why not just list it on gunbroker yourself, or have your FFL consign it? Search here, or read the FAQ's on gunbroker.

 

[chhodge69]

There are many more rules about buying guns than selling them. It would help to know in which state do you reside?

 

[Sam1911]

Can't really see why making a posting on your own web site would be any different than buying a classified ad or posting it for sale online in our Trading Post.

You are selling one gun from your collection. That's not dealing in firearms, which would need a license.

If, by chance, your buyer is located in your own state of residence (and your state doesn't have wierd laws against it) you don't even have to use a dealer.

Obviously, if the gun sale crosses state lines, you do.

 

[SifuGun]

I have a new website selling tactical gear and such. So, part of the attraction to my website would be the latest Ar type rifle. In other words it would be the star of the show. I wouldn't sell the gun through site. but they could buy other stuff from the site that is not a gun. And if they want the gun. I'll have them go through my ffl dealer. Well you ask why not go thru GunBroker , etc. because they charge extra fees. I can easily make a website to advertise gun. I am very computer literate. And i know you can not as a private citizen send a gun thru the mail. There are some conditions in which you can but why deal with all that mess. Just stay on safe side and have old ffl boy do that part of the job. I am in Texas.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Um, I would just do it via Gunbroker myself. Ship thru a FFL to save on shipping cost. It'll still probably run you around $35 for shipping and FFL fee.

 

[SifuGun]

You know i have used Gunsamerica (not GunBroker). And they got a fee out of me. And they did nothing more than post an ad on their site. I had to do all the work on getting the money, arranging the shipping, etc. all the work. So, don't really see why i need them. And i don't thing old GunBroker would be any better on selling my gun. In fact I think they are more expensive.

 

[Sam1911]

Hmmm...now that's a horse of a different feather, so to speak. I'd be very hesitant to put a gun that is for sale (even through a dealer) on my non-FFL company sales page.

The ATF has a lot of leeway in determining if you are dealing in guns without a license. Just because a purchase is transferred through a dealer doesn't mean you can't be seen as dealing. Normally a personally owned firearm that is sold (especially through an FFL) is of no concern. Make it a featured item of your store and I'd be very uncomfortable with that.

 

[Telekinesis]

So, he/she is buying gun from a federally licensed dealer. Not from me. I would make that clear in my ad.

The FFL doesn't own the gun so how is it being bought from him?

I would recommend having the buyer send YOU the payment instead of the FFL. Its one less step where something could happen to the money and its not required at all. It just seems kinda pointless. Also, if you are advertising the gun and receiving payment for the gun, you are the seller, not the FFL. He is just there to help with the transfer of the gun.

I'd also recommend listing it here or on other gun forums (and possibly gunbroker etc.) unless your website has an incredible amount of traffic, completely comprised of gun buyers.

Another thing... depending on which state you are in, you are very likely able to transfer the gun to someone who is also a resident of your state without having to go through a FFL. That means no extra fees for you/the buyer to worry about.

I have a new website selling tactical gear and such. So, part of the attraction to my website would be the latest Ar type rifle. In other words it would be the star of the show.

That gets really close to your "company" selling the gun which would make it a business transaction, therefore requiring a FFL on your part. Selling a gun through a website that already does business transactions and selling a gun off of a personal website (like a blog) are completely different. One is selling something from your personal collection, and the other will look suspiciously like "dealing in firearms without a license".

And i know you can not as a private citizen send a gun thru the mail. There are some conditions in which you can but why deal with all that mess.

As long as you stick with common carriers (ie anything except USPS) you can ship anything. The main caveat is that in the case of an interstate transfer, it must ship to a FFL. (Edit: there are some other requirements, but nothing too difficult to follow.)

 

[kimbershot]

selling on the internet works. long guns=mail them via us postal--i send then priority insured. handguns--must go overnight via common carrier--very expensive. with a handgun--you may want to check with your local dealer--pay them a transfer fee and then have gun sent by them via us postal service-probably cheaper than sending overnight.

make sure that if you sell a gun by yourself that the receiving dealer accepts weapons from an individual (seller) and will do the transfer to your buyer.

 

[SifuGun]

Hmmm...now that's a horse of a different feather, so to speak. I'd be very hesitant to put a gun that is for sale (even through a dealer) on my non-FFL company sales page.

Sam1911, thanks for your direction. I am just getting started with this venture. And floating this idea here is helping a lot with that direction. So, i agree with you. But how is advertising on my website any different than GunBroker, Gunsamerica, or here. Because in all cases where GunBroker, etc. are involved the facts remain the same. I do not have an ffl. I'll have to take to my ffl dealer. So, he can ship it.

The ATF has a lot of leeway in determining if you are dealing in guns without a license. Just because a purchase is transferred through a dealer doesn't mean you can't be seen as dealing. Normally a personally owned firearm that is sold (especially through an FFL) is of no concern. Make it a featured item of your store and I'd be very uncomfortable with that.

I very much agree with you hear. I guess i will not make a featured part of the store. I'll just create an ad for it maybe. (if i find the legal way to do it). I think being a dealer implies you have a store open for the public to browse and inventory. All of which i do not have. I'll only be advertising a gun i bought that i found interesting. And if i sell it through my ffl dealer and make a profit. How is that any different than selling it on GunBroker, etc. I appreciate all you comments and suggestions. My position at this point is to flush out the right way to do this. Or not to do it at all. But like i said, at this point don't see any difference btw my site and GunBroker, etc. If someone can tell me the difference I'll listen.

 

[NavyLCDR]

It's a rifle. Personally, I think you would have much better luck using tried and true methods of selling your one rifle that millions of other people have. You list your gun here for free:
http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=38

Buyer sends payment to you with the name, address and FFL number of their FFL. You take the rifle to US Post Office and mail it to their FFL and be done.

That's just me....

If the buyer lives in the same state, it's likely you could meet and hand them the gun.

 

[bk42261]

Maybe it's just me, but I smell an anti-gun rat here searching for a reason to "close another loophole".
Just sayin'

 

[Sport45]

Buyer sends payment to you with the name, address and FFL number of their FFL. You take the rifle to US Post Office and mail it to their FFL and be done.

Is an AR15 considered to be a rifle by USPS regulations?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Is an AR15 considered to be a rifle by USPS regulations?

If it is an AR15 in rifle configuration - yes.
If it is an AR15 in pistol configuration - no.

 

[Sport45]

Thanks. I wasn't sure if it was only the reciever that counted and knew it was considered "other".

Can a stripped lower receiver be mailed via USPS assuming all other laws are met? (To a FFL, manufacturer, etc.)

 

[ultradoc]

Check out armslist.com

 

[wwace]

The reason why I would say you cannot do this is because you are doing it on a business site, and looking for a profit, exactly what a normal business does. There is no distinction that it is your personal firearm and ATF will not be able to make that distinction either. You are either in business to sell guns or not, period.

 

[Sam1911]

I think being a dealer implies you have a store open for the public to browse and inventory.

Thinking that could lead you into a world of hurt. The ATF prosecutes folks for dealing in firearms without a license, often, and very few of those cases are so blatant as to involve someone with a storefront.

Here's a post from TexasRifleman which explains it well:

Here's the whole law on this. It's sufficiently vague that ATF has successfully prosecuted for low volume.

The term "dealer" means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail

Engaged in the business means, as applied to a dealer in fire- arms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the en- hancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is pre- dominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liq- uidating a personal firearms collection

It does not say that selling guns has to be your PRIMARY source of income, just that your primary reason for buying and selling is profit, not some other reason.

Be very careful.

All very subjective. All at the discretion of the ATF. No where requiring a storefront. Be VERY careful.

 

[Murcielago]

And i know you can not as a private citizen send a gun thru the mail.

Sure you can, so long as you send to an FFL.

 

[Sam1911]

But how is advertising on my website any different than GunBroker, Gunsamerica, or here.

Because GA or GB give you a bit of separation between your various activities (i.e.: selling a gun and running a business)

Look at it this way: Say you have a brick & mortar store full of your tactical goodies. Would you bring that rifle into the store and prop it up on your counter with a big "FOR SALE" sign on it? Assuredly not!

That's precisely the same thing as having a company web page and featuring your rifle for sale on that page.

 

[SifuGun]

Murcielago , I live in Texas. And I have spoken to the Usps people. And there is so much confusion ( who would have thought a government agency full of incompetent people, lol) on their part that I would not attempt to mail a gun with them. I would just rather stay on the safe side and let an ffl dealer do it.

On that note I think Sam1911, is also right. The law is sufficiently vague that i would also not attempt to advertise a gun on my website without a FFL in my name. And i think that is also the BIG difference btw GunBroker , etc. and my website. Someone at GunBroker and similar sites have someone on hand in the company that has an FFL to go with their site. Well thanks to everyone that participated. Yes bk42261, it is just you. I am pro gun. But to any reasonable person, you can see how the laws are vague. So, it never hurts to ask before you do something, right?

 

[Sam1911]

Certainly so!

Now, having said all that I've said on the matter, you may be found to be perfectly within the law (even the BATFE's interpretation) if you were to do this once or twice, or even more often.

But you're raising your profile, increasing the chances you'll end up on an investigator's radar screen. While having your dealings investigated may prove you to be completely in the clear, you need to decide if that's an avenue you really want to go down.

In many cases of firearms law and rights, pushing the limits and proving the fullest extents of your legal rights is admirable. Fighting the powers that would try to constrict your rights farther than the law allows, suffering inconvenience, cost, and legal risk to push back against overly repressive agencies and departments can be righteous and worthwhile. Being investigated, inconvenienced, detained, arrested, charged, tried, and even sometimes incarcerated can be part of the path toward realization of greater freedoms for all. But you should always go into such situations fully understanding that you are doing so, and what the risks and the consequences could be. And you should always make sure that you feel that the principle you're contenting for is worth those risks and consequences if things don't go your way. (And the costs, even if they do!)

In this case, personally, I'd go a different route and avoid the problem all together.

 

[Onward Allusion]

One thing to consider.

EYEBALLS

Unless one spends some big bucks, a personal gun related site will never have the traffic that Gunbroker, Gunsamerica, AuctionArms, or this site THR will ever have. If fees are a concern, then one can stick to sites like this, TFL, & the other various firearm enthusiast forums. I guess the major question is how quickly does one want to sell their guns.

 

[brickeyee]

Can a stripped lower receiver be mailed via USPS assuming all other laws are met?

No.
it is treated as a handgun since it does NOT meet the definitinof a long gun.

And i know you can not as a private citizen send a gun thru the mail.
Sure you can, so long as you send to an FFL.


Sure you can, so long as you send to an FFL.

Anyone can use USPS for a long gun.

ONLY AN FFL can use USPS for a handgun.

FFL to FFL ONLY.
no peon involved.