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"selling" reloads

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Reefinmike, Dec 8, 2012.

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  1. Reefinmike

    Reefinmike Member

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    During range conversation with people curious about reloading(people who ive secured brass from :rolleyes: ), many have asked if I sell my reloads. I always tell them no, but id be happy to help them get started. Everyone ends it at that, they obviously arent really interested in reloading, just cheap ammo.

    Recently, a good buddy who is a glock lover :uhoh: bought some kind of 45 and he has a 1911 on its way to his ffl. He knows im planning on a 1911 here in the next month or so and asked me about selling him reloads. In the past ive given him a couple boxes of 38 for picking me up things while he was at aimsurplus but is it legal to actually sell reloads on a small scale person to person transaction? If it matters any, these would be light cast lead loads and of course Id work up the loads out of my own gun and have some sort of legal doc written up beforehand.

    Id assume its against the law to set up a booth at the gun show or advertise reloads on craigslist, but is it legal to sell to a friend or family member?
     
  2. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    In simple terms.
    If you try to make a profit doing it, it is against federal law.

    And even if you try, you can't possibly sell enough reloads to afford to buy the federal license and liability insurance even a fool would have to have.

    So you just give them away to your friends, right!

    If one of your "friends" blows his gun up, or shoots somebody with one of your "free" reloads?

    You can bet an ambulance chasing lawyer will be whispering Sweet Nothings in his ear before the little band-aid comes off the tiny little scratch.

    In short, don't.

    If your friend wants less expensive reloaded ammo.
    Teach him how to reload, using your equipment.

    Then let him buy his own reloading equipment.

    rc
     
  3. horsemen61

    horsemen61 Member

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    yeah I asked about this one when I got started its a no go dude better safe than sorry rc is right.
     
  4. Reefinmike

    Reefinmike Member

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    Ive told him plenty of times that if he buys the dies, powder primers and bullets, he is more than welcome than to use my press. ive even showed him he can get loading for under $200 and he has refused. he doesnt trust himself. Ive showed him how to reload, ive had him make his own 38's before we went to the range and shot them and for whatever reason he doesnt trust himself. I guess i'll just have to tell him to do his own reloading. legal to sell cast bullets to him, right?
     
  5. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    You spent the money on reloading equipment.
    You spent the time learning how to reload.
    You spend the time to reload ammo.
    So, why do you feel sorry for your "friends" who don't want to do any of that but will take advantage of your efforts? Just remember, they are very good friends up to the point something goes wrong then their lawyer will leave you with nothing and bankrupt by the time they get done throwing you under the bus...

    If they want cheap ammo let them reload it just like you do and if they choose not to, that's their problem. I sleep very well at night with no guilt and with a lot of my ammo on my shelves...
     
  6. Coldfinger

    Coldfinger Member

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    Yep per, your responsibility doesn't end with the transfer of ammo from yourself to your friend. If he happens to be at a range and allows another shooter to fire your ammo, if he gives some of your ammo to another person, resells your ammo.... there are to many variables. You are ultimately responsible for the projectile up to the point of impact. As a reloader myself I taught my own brother to reload rather than give even him my reloads. It just isn't worth the risk.
    My thought is this, never sell my reloads, never allow another to fire my reloads (unless I first fire them from their gun), never give my reloads away (not even to family). Better safe than....
     
  7. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    You can sell all the cast bullets you want.

    You just have to pay sales tax to stay on the up & up with the state!
    And income tax to the feds to stay on the up & up with them..

    No, seriously, selling a few hundred cast bullets once and a while is no big deal.

    Except for the EPA regulations, and all those lead fumes drifting over to the neighbors and making all their kids web-footed and crazy eyed.

    NO, that there just wasn't a right thing to say! :eek:



    Yes, you can sell cast bullets to your friend.

    rc
     
  8. Magnum Shooter

    Magnum Shooter Member

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    Actually manufacturing cast bullets for sale requires proper federal license. I don’t think they would press the issue, for just a few hundred to a buddy, but they could.
     
  9. Ehtereon11B

    Ehtereon11B internet infantryman

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    While on the same thought, is it against the law for a range/gun store to collect range brass from customers, reload it and sell it as the "only" ammo that can be used there? Or is it more of a "their property their rules" situation.
     
  10. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    It is unless they are reloading and selling ammo without a manufactures license from the ATF.

    If they don't have a manufactures license, they are breaking Federal law.


    rc
     
  11. just for fun

    just for fun Member

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  12. 45lcshooter

    45lcshooter Member

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    Ive giving some friends 38spl reloads so they could shoot their new revolvers. They asked me if i could make them up somemore for them and they would pay me for materials, i told them, buy me a few adult beverages and ill give you couple boxes. They did and every one was happy.

    Ive also had a couple friends ask for reloads for rifles, i said i need the rifle to work up accuracy loads, they were fine with it, they bought me the brass and bullets(caliber i didn't reload) but had dies from an estate sale. They wanted to be there for shooting, fine with me. They liked what they saw, had me load the rest of the brass and gave me cash for my time.

    I wont make reloads up for anyone. I live my life on the line everyday(firefighter) my buddies are also firefighters, they know everything can change in an instant, they have much respect for me to use quality components so they stay safe shooting.
     
  13. jwrowland77

    jwrowland77 Member

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    I had a buddy that once he found out I reloaded, tried to get me to make a bunch of reloads for him. I told him that I would be more than happy to show him, he said that would be cool...but has yet to come over so I can show him, that was 6 months ago.

    Only people I reload for is myself and my parents, and probably my brother if he asked.
     
  14. orionengnr

    orionengnr Member

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    If he doesn't want to make the jump, maybe you could let him watch you for a while, then let him build 50 of his own.

    Make sure to keep your finished rounds and his separate.

    I have a friend who was getting into shooting about three years ago. I was starting to become a bit more confident and proficient by that time (and the wife had just bought me a Dillon 550). He and I had been shooting on several occasions. I always picked up brass, he helped me gather cases.

    He came over while I was sorting and tumbling brass one day.
    I asked him if he'd like to try handloading some time. He watched me one time, and the next time I let him build 50 or so, using my components.

    After he shot his own loads, things moved along quickly. I saw a used Dillon 550 at the gun show for a good price and bought it. had to spend a few bucks replacing missing parts, added a Strong Mount and a Roller Press handle (just like mine).

    I sold it to him for what I had in in, and the rest is history. A week ago I received our first order from Powder Valley--11K primers, 7 lbs of powder.

    :)
     
  15. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    My brother has been considering starting to reload. He has done some reading and video watching, but he wanted to get a little hands on feel for it. This past summer I sat and showed him how to size, prep, and prime the brass, select a powder charge, and assemble a few .45ACP and 30-30 rounds on my equipment. He did the bulk of the loading under my supervision. The next day we took them to the range and shot a sampling of them. It was pretty cool watching him grin at the target and then at me as the rounds he built himself fired, didn't blow up his guns, and found their mark.

    He still has (or has shot) a couple dozen .45s and a handful of 30-30s. He has not yet made the leap into purchasing equipment loading his own, but now that he has done it hands on, I'm pretty sure someday he will. I'm not concerned about the rounds or the likelihood my brother will sue me. But there is no way I would build loads for anyone else, even as gifts. There are just too many ways to get into trouble.
     
  16. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    I read in the federal laws relating to this, and it clearly stated "for profit" is not legal. However, I contacted an expert / attorney in firearm laws for our state, also a friend of mine of many years, and he said it doesn't matter if it's for profit or not, it's legal as long as you aren't conducting it as a business entity, thus violating FFL laws. In short he said that you can sell your relaods all day long to anyone, and for what ever price you like, as long as you are not advertising, or approaching it as a business.

    As for civil risks, well thats a pretty obvious issue. Even a good shooting buddy isn't likely to take it with a grain of salt after he has lost some fingers, eye sight, or what ever. Even if it wasn't the reloads that caused his catrostrophic failure it becomes an expensive and one very difficult defense to win.

    I do sell to close friends, but that's a risk I'm personally willing to take.

    GS
     
  17. brickeyee

    brickeyee Member

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    The attorney is simply WRONG.
    Reloading (manufacturing ammunition) requires a license, EXCEPT for your own personal use of the reloaded ammunition.

    The tax man wants a cut also if you sell them.
     
  18. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    I tell my "friends" that I would be DELIGHTED to reload ammunition for them.

    I love reloading.

    All they have to do is come to my house and wait while I work for them....

    Provided that they will work for me while I'm reloading their ammo.

    There are toilets that need scrubbing, and paint that needs scraping, and rugs that need vacuuming.
    I'll "work" all day for them on those terms.

    Now, I do kind of hate trimming brass.
    So, if they don't like cleaning toilets, I'll let them trim brass for as long as their fingers can stand it.
    Then back to plungin' for those deadbeats.
     
  19. TheCracker

    TheCracker Member

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    This is excellent advise. My brother is the only person I've loaded for. But most each time I made him be there to help me. He finally got his own press last spring. It's really better that way.
     
  20. Double_J

    Double_J Member

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    I only reload for 2 people. Those people are my brother (.44 Mag. ammo is DANG expensive) and my reloading buddy/best friend who got me into reloading. Those are the only people who I trust to shoot my ammo, and I trust my reloading buddy's ammo to shoot in my guns.

    My buddy and I talked about reloading for a profit one night over a couple of steaks and a six pack of beer. When we looked into what we would need to do it ad make a profit, we canceled that idea. The volume we would need to break even is UNREAL. FFL, ITAR, Business Lic., INSURANCE, ATTORNEY RETAINER, Corporation fees (there is NO WAY I would own a business as a sole proprietor on something like this), and equipment cost were all in excess of what we could do in our spare time.

    Like many others I will show someone how to reload, and let them use my setup until they can get started. I will not do it for them, the risk is too high as has been stated above.
     
  21. 45lcshooter

    45lcshooter Member

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    What big brother doesnt know, wont hurt. If PD would watch "moonshiners" then they would know where to find the stills.
     
  22. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    So you're implying to go ahead and break the laws as long as you don't get caught!

    Thats a High Road attitude!
     
  23. Rottweiler

    Rottweiler Member

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    Float Pilot, I'm borrowing what you said. That is truly golden
     
  24. 45lcshooter

    45lcshooter Member

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    Nope not breaking laws. But if one of my buddies is going to ask for some reloads or buy them from me. Im not going to tell everyone that im selling reloads to my buddies, because then every tom, dick, and harry is going to want reloads. If its not documented it never happened.

    The show moonshiners, is documented so its happeneing. My buddies arent out online saying that i reload for them, they buy and i buy componets with the same dead presidents you do.

    Im all for helping friends out if they dont have the money to buy a box of 20 30-06 for 18.99 that price is outragious, hence why we reload.

    Im sure your not going to tell big brother that you reload and might have unregistered firearms, when this adminastration impliments a ban. Im sure as hang not going to tell them what i may or may not have.


    Pretty much a more explantion of Float Pilot's in my basic opinion.
     
  25. blarby

    blarby Member

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    No.


    NO no.


    NO NO NO !

    Hate to over emphasize that one as much, but its simply not true.

    Selling is verboten unless you possess a class 6. If you happen to possess a class 6, you might as well sell the ammo, too.

    The angle here that most skirt this ruling on is "livelihood and profit".

    Per my personal discussions with the ATF... Livelihood is harder to establish. Profit however, is not.

    Trading cast bullets for brass ?

    Sure.

    Selling cast bullets to cover even the cost of lead ?

    No go.

    YMMV- But, the writing of that law is pretty clear.

    I've dealt with this up and down the ladder this year......

    While I admit, selling cast lead projectiles is incredibly low on the ATF radar, admitting and commiting federal offenses out of hand is generally a bad idea if it can be avoided.

    Its very easy to put on rose colored glasses and say its ok. Trust me, that hue of glass is not shared by the folks that enforce these rules....
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
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