Semi-Auto .357 carbine

[Domino]

How come no one makes one?

Would you buy one?

I'm thinking of something in the lines of a Ruger 99/44 or M1 Carbine in .357 Magnum plus an adjustable gas system for lighter 38 type loads.

Oh and a quality mount for optics and 10-20 round detachable magazines.

Yay or Nay on the idea?

 

[mnrivrat]

Not that it is a terrible idea, but one would think that the .44 magnum carbine made by Ruger would have been much more popular if there was a demand for this type of gun.

The same applies to the Marlin camp carbines made in 9mm and 45 auto.

Also design limitations come into play with making auto's to feed a rimmed cartridge like the .357 mag. Ruger made the rotary magazine but they have their limits.

Come to think of it : I respectfully think it is a bad idea !

 

[Zundfolge]

You can always get a MecTech CCU for a Glock in .357sig (you just said .357 ... you didn't specify mag or sig ).

 

[rockstar.esq]

Once upon a time I read an article comparing the Taylor KO factor's of the .44mag, .357, and .45LC to the .30-30, 30-06, and if memory serves, the .270Win. The handgun calibers were used in lever guns to maximize long range potential and the gist of the article said that for under 100yds, deer should drop just as dead with the handgun rounds as they do with the rifle rounds. As for the semiauto carbine notion (Hi cap no less) Frankly, I think it's a fine idea. I mean if we have the .30 carbine, why not the .357 Mag carbine. Seems to me the "anemic" performance of the 30 carbine would be well answered. Firearms are sometimes so traditional that sometimes the young bucks need to shake things up.

 

[pauli]

honestly, i don't see the point. we've got revolver rounds for lever/pump guns, and semi auto pistol rounds for semi auto carbines. not much call for crossover.

 

[grimjaw]

I wouldn't buy one for the same reason I won't get the Ruger .44 Magnum. Too expensive to feed. I have a Marlin lever in .357 that will eat .357 or .38. I don't know that an autoloader would be as versatile.

Now if you'd said 7.62x25 Tokarev or .30 Carbine, that's more interesting.

jmm

 

[dasmi]

7.62x25 Tokarev

Oh, now that would be sweet.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

The main reason you don't see too many semiautos in revolver cartridges is that they are rimmed rounds. Rimless cartridges are much more suitable for semiautos due to their feeding characteristics.

You'll note the the Ruger carbines in .44 Magnum have either a tubular mag (the old models), or a small capacity rotary in the new models. AFAIK, nobody makes an extra capacity mag for the new rifles with detachable magazines, becuase it would be too much of a PITA to make it run right.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I'm thinking of something in the lines of a Ruger 99/44 or M1 Carbine in .357 Magnum ...

Oh and a quality mount for optics and 10-20 round detachable magazines.

Um, why? The M1 Carbine already fills that niche nicely. It is a proven design, is cheap and easy to find, and both 15 and 30 round mags are plentiful. The .30 Carbine round it is chambered for has a 110 grain bullet leaving the muzzle at just shy of 2,000 fps, for a muzzle energy of 967 ft-lbs. The .357 magnum round uses a heavier bullet (125-180 grains, typically) but at lower velocity (around 1,500 fps). Using a rifle barrel to maximize velocity, a typical .357 round would generate about 960 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, or just about the same as the .30 carbine. As range increases the .357 will retain energy a little better due to the heavier bullet, but it will also drop more. At 200 yards (the max practical range of both cartridges), the .30 carbine is packing 373 ft-lbs and the 180 grain .357 magnum is at 385. Again -- too close to call.

So why reinvent the wheel by trying to rejigger it for a rimmed revolver cartridge that offers no practical benefit?

 

[Slimjim]

You could get an AR15 lower with a 10mm upper and have .357 power

 

[Kurush]

One word: rimlock. The .357 is a rimmed cartridge and rimmed cartridges in normal box magazines will rimlock and FTF unless loaded carefully. To prevent rimlock any semiauto would have to either use an alternative mag design like a tube or drum, or for a box mag, it would have to be either a top-loading mag like a Bren, or an angled nose-up magazine. Given how long a .357 is I think the last option is probably infeasible, and tubes/drums/toploaders probably wouldn't sell.

 

[KriegHund]

100 round c-mag type drum for .357

That would be the coolest weapon on the face of the earth!

Ive always wondered why there arent more carbines in general, andi posted a thread on it once. Ill go find it in a little while. The general counter-argument to having them was that rifles do everything that the carbines can.
The general "For" argument was that they had less recoil, more accurate/slightly increased range from pistols, higher mag capacity, greater controlability.

Although i have to admit the carbines dont have half as much merit as they might if it werent for the cursed 18" barrel law, i still like em.

here it is http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=148276&highlight=carbines

 

[SLCDave]

Um, why? The M1 Carbine already fills that niche nicely.

So why reinvent the wheel by trying to rejigger it for a rimmed revolver cartridge that offers no practical benefit?

You could get an AR15 lower with a 10mm upper and have .357 power

But if he wants a carbine to share ammo with his .357 Mag revolver, the M1 Carbine and/or the AR15 in 10mm won't exactly do that, will they?

 

[walking arsenal]

One word: rimlock

If that were totally true the .357 Desert eagle would never function. There is no reason why the same design idea couldnt be applied here.

 

[Father Knows Best]

But if he wants a carbine to share ammo with his .357 Mag revolver, the M1 Carbine and/or the AR15 in 10mm won't exactly do that, will they?

It would be a lot easier to just buy a revolver chambered in .30 Carbine, wouldn't it? Ruger makes them, and some other manufacturers may, also.

[regarding rimlock]
If that were totally true the .357 Desert eagle would never function. There is no reason why the same design idea couldnt be applied here.

There are certainly autoloaders that use rimmed cartridges. They are rare, though, because it's tricky to make a traditional magazine function reliably with a rimmed cartridge. You can't have a double stack mag, for instance, and the cartridges must be inserted into the mag in a way that staggers the rims and keeps them aligned properly. A straight vertical stack won't work. That's why Ruger uses a rotary magazine, for instance. It's also why most repeating rifles that use rimmed cartridges also use tubular magazines, which aren't quick or convenient to recharge.

Nobody is saying that it would be impossible to convert an M1 carbine to use a rimmed pistol cartridge. We're just saying that it is technically very difficult to do it and come up with a firearm that functions reliably. Since there are rimless cartridges that work just as well, why bother going to all that effort and expense on a project that has little chance of success?

Of course, if you have unlimited time and resources, and want to do it just 'cause you can, then be my guest. I'm all for it. I may not understand it, but I'll certainly support your right to do it.

 

[Uncle Alvah]

The same applies to the Marlin camp carbines made in 9mm and 45 auto.

Seems I just saw a picture of a new Ruger auto much along the same lines. Seems like it was in 9mm maybe??? Seemed kinda pointless to me, I'd rather a Beretta Storm in .40(or .45, if it was made).

 

[billwiese]

Have no idea why you want a 357 carbine when there are nice 44 carbines out there.

I've shot a 44Mag Marlin lever action w/hotter 44M loads, and another w/45LC 'hunting' loads, and they are very mild - so much so that there's no need for a lighter round IMHO. I can shoot these all day long, just like ARs.

I'm sure the Ruger 'Deerfield' 44M carbine will have approx same recoil, too, (which, to me, is minimal) as the Marlin lever gun - maybe even less.

I do believe the Ruger PC40 carbine could be adapted for 357Sig use. Time will tell.

357Sig seems to be cheap to reload too - same-brand once-fired quality brass is available for $20/1000. (I think that's cleaned/polished but not sure.)


Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[Gewehr98]

Does it have to be semi-auto?

Just keep pulling the trigger six times, reload, repeat. This one's in .44 Magnum, but a .357 Magnum version isn't out of the question:

 

[spartacus2002]

How bout an SKS?

 

[grimjaw]

Gewehr98, I always thought those revolver carbines looked silly until I saw that one. That's durned nifty.

jmm

 

[Fumbler]

If that were totally true the .357 Desert eagle would never function.

Haha. They don't.



Gewehr, how's that cylinder gap blast feel on your arm, or is it a non-issue?

 

[Gewehr98]

Cylinder gap blast on my arm?

It's a non-issue. I never worried about it, truthfully. I suppose I could hold the carbine with my hand right there against the cylinder/forcing cone gap if I felt like being silly.

Likewise, I dunno where people say that Desert Eagles don't function. Maybe they're limp-wristing the gun, but mine's been a total champ, just feed it the right ammo, say 158gr .357 Magnum loads around 1600fps.

 

[petrel800]

www.ar15barrels.com had a barrell for a wildcat .357 cartridge. The cartrige was a .223 trimmed down to the same length as the .357 mag cartridge, it was then loaded with a .357 bullet and could be loaded a little hotter than a regular .357 mag load due to the pressure levels the AR15 can withstand. I called him a couple times about the barrel for an AR15 upper, but he said he could never get the gun to feed properly with any of the mags he fabricated.

Its a shame, because it would have been an awesome home defense gun. I bet you could build a load that would throw that .357 bullet downrange at 1800 fps. Oh well maybe when I win the lottery tonight, I will devote my lifes work to buliding the .357 automag AR15.

 

[Kurush]

If that were totally true the .357 Desert eagle would never function. There is no reason why the same design idea couldnt be applied here.

The desert eagle uses nose-up angled feeding. Here's a picture from the manual: http://zvis.com/images/guns/depman/depman06.jpg

Angled feeding designs can still experience rimlock if you load them with short OAL cartridges. Nobody's saying a 357 carbine is impossible, it's just too much hassle for gun manufacturers.

 

[Fumbler]

Likewise, I dunno where people say that Desert Eagles don't function. Maybe they're limp-wristing the gun, but mine's been a total champ, just feed it the right ammo, say 158gr .357 Magnum loads around 1600fps.

What powder (and how much) are you using to push a 158 grainer at 1600 fps out of a DE?