Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Semi-Auto .410 Pistol Grip Only * PGO * -- Does Anyone Make One??

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Mike1234567, Oct 24, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    4,084
    Location:
    Alamo City
    Does anyone make a semi-auto PGO .410 smooth bore firearm?

    Since these are classified as "other" rather than shotguns then, the way I understand it, the barrels may be legally cut shorter than 18 inches provided the overall length is at least 26 inches and this does not require a tax stamp.

    IMHO, a .410 PGO shorty sure seems like a great HD firearm.

    BTW, I'm aware of Mossberg's PGO pump actions. I might go that route but I prefer a good semi-auto.

    ETA: I can't spend more than $1000. I want a .410 bore due to lesser recoil compared to 12ga or 20ga. I'll be adding a light/laser combo for sight acquisition because I'm sure I'll be watching the threat instead of my sights. If the laser fails I'm sure I'll be point-shooting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  2. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    21,221
    Location:
    AL, NC
    The majority of semiauto shotgun designs out there require a bolt return spring assembly that is nested in the stock behind the receiver. To the best of my possibly scanty knowledge, no one in the USA has ever manufactured a semiauto PGO AOW shotgun in .410, which is what it would take to get a Federally legal gun with a barrel shorter than 18". And even that might not be legal in all states/local jurisdictions. BTW, the AOW still requires a tax stamp, but it's only $5. See the NFA Forum here at THR for more...

    So as far as I know, the only option you have for what you want is to build a SBS (short barrel shotgun) with the appropriate paperwork ($200 tax stamp, where available).

    a .410 PGO shorty sure seems like a great HD firearm.

    Not to me, but I'm beginning to wonder if I really know anything at all about shotguns any more, or any other firearm for that matter. Or whether I've been transported to some kind of alternate dimension or something. Wait... is that Rod Serling's voice I hear?
     
  3. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    4,084
    Location:
    Alamo City
    LOL, Lee!! So, as far as you know, my only option is a Mossberg pump action? There are no domestically made PGO shot shell semi-auto firearms? BTW, I could opt for 20ga but the .410 bore would be much easier to handle as a PGO.

    ETA: And don't touch your television set. Oh, wait, that's "The Outer Limits".
     
  4. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    21,221
    Location:
    AL, NC
    There was a company (Sage International) that did a PGO conversion of the Remington 1100 some years back, it was called a Sidewinder IIRC. But it would have to be a SBS to be shorter than 18" of barrel. And as far as I know they never did any in .410.

    High Standard used their own Supermatic design to build the Model 10A and 10B series of bullpup semiautos because it was about the only semiauto design at the time that did not have a bolt return spring. The Al Crouch-developed prototype for the design (1957) was based on the Remington Model 58, primarily because that design lacked a bolt return spring and was widely available (though limited to only three shots). About the only other semiauto action choice at the time that did not have a bolt return spring was the Sears/JC Higgins Model 60, which looks suspiciously like a High Standard Supermatic.
     
  5. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    4,084
    Location:
    Alamo City
    Okay... So I'm limited to a pump action for a PGO shot shell firearm. I was afraid of that. I think a semi-auto 18" is better for HD than a 15.5" pump. Maybe six one... or a half dozen the other.
     
  6. DPris

    DPris Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    4,455
    A very poor choice for a home def...for ANY purpose, really, beyond just making noise.
    Denis
     
  7. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    4,084
    Location:
    Alamo City
    A semi-auto .410 shot shell firearm is a "poor choice" for home defense??? Please elaborate.
     
  8. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2009
    Messages:
    5,051
    Are your hallways that small that you would need a gun that small? Your better off with a proper handgun if thats the case. Take it from the experts such as Lee.
     
  9. Youngster

    Youngster Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Messages:
    959
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    I've seen "Krink" style .410 Saigas from custom outfits, a PGO might be doable, however I don't see what you're gaining with that configuration.
     
  10. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,523
    Location:
    Tallahassee, FL
    You know, if you want a short barrel just spend the $200 on a stamp and make what you want when it's approved... it's not as difficult as it seems, and you avoid the hassle of having to call your lawyer to come explain the law to some unaware LEO that just arrested you for what he believes to be a weapons violation and you can put a stock on it if you want rather than having to keep it PGO forever.
     
  11. 788Ham

    788Ham Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,206
    Location:
    Hills west of Denver
    Sorry guys, I'm not trying to be dense here, but the way these PGO, AOW's are thrown out on here, I'm in need of a little edumacation on these!

    PGO?
    AOW?
    Thanks,
     
  12. The Sarge

    The Sarge Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    594
    Location:
    South Texas/Grand Cayman
    Saiga .410
     
  13. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    21,221
    Location:
    AL, NC
  14. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    15,710
    Location:
    Hot and Humid FL
    Mossberg sells their PGO guns - they can be converted to AOW since they never had a shoulder stock on them; otherwise they would be a SBS - short barrel shotgun

    The difference is in the price of the stamp.
     
  15. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    11,966
    If my understanding of the NFA is correct, some clarification is needed. The tax stamp for a Form 1 (that's the form used to get approval to make the NFA item, even if that making is simply converting a Title I firearm into an NFA regulated Title II firearm) is $200, regardless of which type of NFA firearm one wishes to make. The tax stamp for a Form 4, transfer of an NFA regulated item, is $200 for SBR/SBS/Sound Suppressor/transferable machinegun, but only $5 for an AOW.

    In other words, if you're legally doing it yourself the tax to make an AOW or an SBS is the same. The transfer tax on one already made by an SOT manufacturer is what's different.
     
  16. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    4,084
    Location:
    Alamo City
    Since I prefer a semi-auto and removable magazines then maybe I'll just pay for the $200 stamp and build a PGO .410 shorty Saiga. It just sticks in my craw to pay that darned tax... and the 4-6 month wait time is no joy either. I already have a Saiga .410, BTW.
     
  17. ForumSurfer

    ForumSurfer Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3,057
    Location:
    NC
  18. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    4,084
    Location:
    Alamo City
    ForumSurfer... Thanks for the links. I'll read them thoroughly. I'm sure there will be a couple of things debated such as recoil recovery and aiming. I don't think recoil will be a problem with a .410 bore and I'll be using a light/laser combo.

    Off to do some reading...
     
  19. pikid89

    pikid89 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    1,556
    Location:
    The Gator Nation
    you'd be surprised what kind of recoil the .410 can generate, especially in lightweight guns

    Id bet $$$ that even, I an untrained shotgunner (other than clays and stuff), could shoot a course faster with my 12 gauge duck gun, than a PGO .410

    with as many posts as you have, I would have thought that you've been around long enough to know that PGO's don't get no love around here, and for good reason
     
  20. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Messages:
    7,816
    Location:
    Kingsport Tennessee
    There is an ATF tech letter to that effect. I would not bet on ATF not changing its mind in the future, though.

    Shotguns pistol grip only (PGO) from the factory were not designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder, therefore they are not a "long gun" under the GCA or on the 4473: they are "other" weapon just like a raw AR receiver that could be built as a rifle or a pistol.

    If you take a PGO and install a buttstock it becomes re-designed to be fired from the shoulder and magically is transformed to a conventional "long gun" and can wear either a pistol grip or a buttstock as long as barrel is over 18" and overall is over 26". For that versatility I would opt to keep a PGO barrel length 18" or over.

    As to the opening post, the local gun shops run from sporting good stores to self-defense to class 3 either "cop shops" or NFA collectors. I have not seen a PGO .410 semi-auto, although I have not been looking that hard. The PGOs I have seen in .410 are all pump action.
     
  21. RustHunter87

    RustHunter87 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    379
    Location:
    MAINE
  22. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    4,468
    Location:
    Bakersfield, California
    I'd spend the money on paying someone to teach you how to run a gun that's actually worthwhile.
     
  23. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    4,084
    Location:
    Alamo City
    I guess I should have added that I don't want a 12ga and prefer smaller than 20ga due to recoil issues with a pistol grip. I should also have stated a maximum $$$ amount I'm willing to pay. Let's set it at $1000 or less.
     
  24. Youngster

    Youngster Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Messages:
    959
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    A 12 gauge PGO isn't that hard to shoot, even with buck and slugs at eye level, even one handed is doable if you know what you're doing.

    The thing is, along with its inherent disadvantages a PGO doesn't gain much over a short barrelled shotgun as far as handiness and maneuverability are concerned.

    My 12.5" 870 with short Hogue stock is only 31", short enough that I can readily open doors and otherwise use my other hand while keeping the gun at the ready, going through doorways and approaching corners is no problem either.
     
  25. desidog

    desidog Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,302
    I have Saiga 410 - and if someone came in the house uninvited, i'd much rather have a pistol. A 357mag with a 4" barrel is shorter, lighter, quicker, cheaper(after ATF paperwork/conversion/etc) , and delivers more of a punch than a 410 slug from a 19" barrel. It also fits in your nightstand drawer.

    410's are fun, but trusting your safety to one when there's many other more optimal options out there is lunacy, IMHO.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page