Mike1234567
member
^^^ I wouldn't be so sure. Five #00 balls per shot fired at 1200-1400 fps ain't nuthin' to sneeze at. 
Semi-Auto .410 Pistol Grip Only * PGO * -- Does Anyone Make One??
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pikid89
Member
Mike, this thread is turning into a thread that you commented in, so i would assume you read it, if not, here is a link
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=606746
I will leave you with something I wrote in that thread that maybe will help to sway you
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=606746
I will leave you with something I wrote in that thread that maybe will help to sway you
ugaarguy
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A .22 LR is nothing to sneeze at either. I wouldn't use a .22 LR for self defense either. A .410 shotgun with 18" bbl. can't even get a slug moving fast enough to penetrate to the FBI minimum 12" in 10% ballistic gel. Every handgun caliber from 9mmx19 on up, even out of a 5" or less handgun bbl, is a better choice for HD/SD than a .410 shotgun.
If you want a PGO Saiga .410 with a short bbl as a fun gun go for it. I think it would be a great time to shoot such a firearm. If you choose to use it for SD/HD that's your business, but at least you've been presented with facts on why there are better choices.
jojo200517
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I'm not sure there is a .410 semi auto pistol grip shotgun out there that came from the factory pistol grip only to allow you to make it into an AOW instead of a SBS.
Its kinda a moot point, you would be manufacturing an AOW or a SBS either way it will cost ya $200 from the get go, AOW is $5 to TRANSFER $200 to make.
All that being said and considering spring thingy in the buttstock of many semi auto shotguns preventing pistol grip only configs your kinda stuck with either get a double barrel, pump, or some kinda gas piston system like a .410 saiga.
Of getting what you want in mind the .410 saiga seems to fit pretty well, do a standard conversion, leave off the stock, possibly cut off turnion piece that sticks out to attach stock and plug rear of receiver up. Once ya get SBS stamp approved and back you will probably want a good smith to chop it and make any adjustments that may be needed to the gas system to keep it reliable. I could see it coming in around the 1k price range or less with the stamp and smith work.
Its kinda a moot point, you would be manufacturing an AOW or a SBS either way it will cost ya $200 from the get go, AOW is $5 to TRANSFER $200 to make.
All that being said and considering spring thingy in the buttstock of many semi auto shotguns preventing pistol grip only configs your kinda stuck with either get a double barrel, pump, or some kinda gas piston system like a .410 saiga.
Of getting what you want in mind the .410 saiga seems to fit pretty well, do a standard conversion, leave off the stock, possibly cut off turnion piece that sticks out to attach stock and plug rear of receiver up. Once ya get SBS stamp approved and back you will probably want a good smith to chop it and make any adjustments that may be needed to the gas system to keep it reliable. I could see it coming in around the 1k price range or less with the stamp and smith work.
Mike1234567
member
I'm taking to heart the posts from folks who wrote that a .410 bore isn't adequate for SD. I'll research that more before going forward with this plan. If the .410 appears to be inadequate or marginal then I may step up to a 20ga but nothing beefier because I don't feel confident that I can properly control a PGO 12ga. If I do this it'll probably be based on a Saiga donor. However, to keep costs down, I might go with a Mossberg pump instead.
ETA: I did a little more research regarding ballistics of .410 bore buckshot and I remain convinced that it's more than adequate for HD. The gel tests I've seen show an average penetration of 15 to 25 inches depending on the #00 load and an average of 18 inches for #000. The #00 shells ranged from 2.5" to 3" with 8 or 9 pellets and the 3 inch #000 was 5 pellets. The #00 tests were through thick clothing. I just don't see how this is in any way "anemic".
ETA: I did a little more research regarding ballistics of .410 bore buckshot and I remain convinced that it's more than adequate for HD. The gel tests I've seen show an average penetration of 15 to 25 inches depending on the #00 load and an average of 18 inches for #000. The #00 shells ranged from 2.5" to 3" with 8 or 9 pellets and the 3 inch #000 was 5 pellets. The #00 tests were through thick clothing. I just don't see how this is in any way "anemic".
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Andrew Wyatt
Member
I don't think you really see the flaw with your plan. the flaw with your plan is not the caliber. it's the fact that you are seriously considering a PGO.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Our old family gunsmith used to say that "any project is feasible if properly funded." He also used to say that you could get a Corvette station wagon built, if you really wanted one.
It is of no consequence to me what anyone wants, or has decided is the absolute bee's knees for whatever purpose. It's still a somewhat free country. If you want it, go for it. Just be sure and stay legal, so that you don't add felony issues to everything else.
If this whole thing really is a shotgun focused hardware experiment - and I'm willing to accept that as the case (the only other explanation I can see is that it's an effort at trollery, and I'm not willing to make that accusation at this point - even though gun board moderators with a few years of experience tend to be a little cynical sometimes), then as I see it, a rational person who really was interested in serious experimentation and not just gun gimmicks would be doing several things here, in sequence.
Number one, said rational person would be shooting a standard riot type shotgun of the chosen make/model/gauge extensively, establishing for themselves a personal baseline of performance and 'usability' for said shotgun in its conventional garb in a variety of situations. Conventional garb being defined as at least an 18" barrel and a full conventional pattern shoulder stock. This would involve shooting basic defensive shotgun drills/courses of fire with a competition timer and someone else present to run the timer and record the results. What kinds of drills? Well, keep it simple - clearing a plate rack at seven yards, for example. Or engaging multiple paper targets at whatever range/arrangement. Something like that.
The next step would be attempting the same drills or courses of fire with the same exact shotgun, only this time equipped with a PGO stock rather than the conventional shoulder stock. At least there would be a baseline of performance for both the shotgun and the shooter with which to compare results achieved with the PGO version.
At that point an educated guess could be made as to whether the AOW/SBS approach to defensive shotguns would really be useful for that person or not. The practical difference in OAL (overall length) of the gun is going to be just a few inches of barrel - 4" or 6" or so.
And using what I like to think of as a rational mind, if indeed I do have one of those, I have to ask - is it worth it? Is it worth the extra $ and the extra legal hassle just to shorten OAL on a shotgun by just a few inches?
My own answer over the many years I have considered this question has always been "no, it's just not worth it."
But YMMV.
It is of no consequence to me what anyone wants, or has decided is the absolute bee's knees for whatever purpose. It's still a somewhat free country. If you want it, go for it. Just be sure and stay legal, so that you don't add felony issues to everything else.
If this whole thing really is a shotgun focused hardware experiment - and I'm willing to accept that as the case (the only other explanation I can see is that it's an effort at trollery, and I'm not willing to make that accusation at this point - even though gun board moderators with a few years of experience tend to be a little cynical sometimes
), then as I see it, a rational person who really was interested in serious experimentation and not just gun gimmicks would be doing several things here, in sequence.Number one, said rational person would be shooting a standard riot type shotgun of the chosen make/model/gauge extensively, establishing for themselves a personal baseline of performance and 'usability' for said shotgun in its conventional garb in a variety of situations. Conventional garb being defined as at least an 18" barrel and a full conventional pattern shoulder stock. This would involve shooting basic defensive shotgun drills/courses of fire with a competition timer and someone else present to run the timer and record the results. What kinds of drills? Well, keep it simple - clearing a plate rack at seven yards, for example. Or engaging multiple paper targets at whatever range/arrangement. Something like that.
The next step would be attempting the same drills or courses of fire with the same exact shotgun, only this time equipped with a PGO stock rather than the conventional shoulder stock. At least there would be a baseline of performance for both the shotgun and the shooter with which to compare results achieved with the PGO version.
At that point an educated guess could be made as to whether the AOW/SBS approach to defensive shotguns would really be useful for that person or not. The practical difference in OAL (overall length) of the gun is going to be just a few inches of barrel - 4" or 6" or so.
And using what I like to think of as a rational mind, if indeed I do have one of those, I have to ask - is it worth it? Is it worth the extra $ and the extra legal hassle just to shorten OAL on a shotgun by just a few inches?
My own answer over the many years I have considered this question has always been "no, it's just not worth it."
But YMMV.
pikid89
Member
you seem to be accepting of using 20ga but not with a PGO, so why not get a 20 gauge with a collapsable stock...those are a dime a dozen for the saga
as others have said time and time again, PGO's are for door breachers and people who don't fully understand fighting with a shotgun
as others have said time and time again, PGO's are for door breachers and people who don't fully understand fighting with a shotgun
Mike1234567
member
Lee,
I understand that you don't know me. I also understand that you have a responsibility to kick out trolls. Please believe me when I tell you that I'm not a troll... at least not intentionally.
Regarding Corvette station wagons; There have been several. Google is your friend... and that's not a troll remark.
Regarding "drills"; I'm not physically capable of this. What I need is an easy-to-carry and shoot HD firearm. I think a PGO .410 bore with a light/laser combo is just the ticket. If I'm wrong and I actually have a violent home invasion then I may pay for my miscalculation with my life. I will practice at the range to ensure I can actually handle it as I should.
I "am" taking in what you and others are telling me but, being a huge PITA pragmatist, I must prove it to myself. It's not arrogance but, rather, insecurity regarding my own and everyone else's knowledge. Call it a scientific mindset without the intelligence to back up my theories.
I understand that you don't know me. I also understand that you have a responsibility to kick out trolls. Please believe me when I tell you that I'm not a troll... at least not intentionally.
Regarding Corvette station wagons; There have been several. Google is your friend... and that's not a troll remark.
Regarding "drills"; I'm not physically capable of this. What I need is an easy-to-carry and shoot HD firearm. I think a PGO .410 bore with a light/laser combo is just the ticket. If I'm wrong and I actually have a violent home invasion then I may pay for my miscalculation with my life. I will practice at the range to ensure I can actually handle it as I should.
I "am" taking in what you and others are telling me but, being a huge PITA pragmatist, I must prove it to myself. It's not arrogance but, rather, insecurity regarding my own and everyone else's knowledge. Call it a scientific mindset without the intelligence to back up my theories.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
If you're not physically capable of running the standard shotgun drills, you're not physically capable of running a shotgun.
Mike1234567
member
I can handle a shotgun just fine. I just can't run the drills. There are many types of disabilities.
pikid89
Member
I'm pretty sure whatever you physical limitations, you would be better served with a stocked shotgun, regardless of the gauge,
the pgo format is not ergonomic nor easy to run quickly...not sure how many other ways it can be said...
the pgo format is not ergonomic nor easy to run quickly...not sure how many other ways it can be said...
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Elsewhere I'm in a discussion on the merits of a stocked 410 pump as a HD tool for folks of limited physical strength and with divers disabilities.
IMO, this would be a better choice for many people than most handguns and certainly a PGO shotgun.
One possibility, an 1100 in 410 would handle like an M1 carbine and be more potent at close range.
IMO, this would be a better choice for many people than most handguns and certainly a PGO shotgun.
One possibility, an 1100 in 410 would handle like an M1 carbine and be more potent at close range.
ForumSurfer
Member
I'll agree. Even from a seated position in a tiny blind, I'll take a stocked shotgun. They just handle better.
ugaarguy
Member
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Mike, if you're going to SBS a Saiga anyway Ace rifle stocks is making a receiver block that replaces the stock on an unmodified Saiga with a pistol grip. Its intended use is to mount an ACE stock, but it would make conversion to PGO a drop in process mechanically. You could always add a fixed or collapsible folding stock as well if the PGO configuration proves less usable than you hope. http://riflestocks.com/store/product34.html
Mike1234567
member
^^^ Thanks for the link to the ACE grip. I'll definitely keep it in mind.
Cryogaijin
Member
Just skimmed the thread, but noone suggested the Taurus Judge?
That said, my initial thought was the Saiga.
That said, my initial thought was the Saiga.
PT92
Member
Have you considered a Taurus Judge or S&W equivalent? .410 in a handgun.
-Cheers
Just noticed that Cryogaijin previously had mentioned this.
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Mike1234567
member
If the Judge (or Governor) could be bought with a smooth bore and 10+ inch barrel then, yes, I'd seriously consider one. But the stoopid BATFE forces use of a rifled barrel.
FIVETWOSEVEN
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First part isn't a problem unless you walk around your house/property with that thing in your arms all the time you are awake. Second part isn't entirely possible with a PGO shotgun.
ugaarguy
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Mike1-7, have you looked at gun weight yet?
The Izmash website lists the factory Saiga .410 330mm bbl (approx 13") at 3.2 kg, or just a shade over 7lbs. - http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga-410.shtml The Beretta CX4 with 16.6" bbl weighs in at 5.75 lbs - http://www.berettausa.com/products/cx4-storm/ The Kel Tec Sub-2000 is downright anorexic at 4lbs even - http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/sub-2000/.
I'm not saying don't do your PGO / SBS Saiga build. I'm just trying to help with weight info since you want something easy to carry. Also based on the pictures of the 410-K on the Izmash website 13" looks to be about as short as you can go on a Saiga bbl before you run into the gas system & have to start doing really serious modifications.
The Izmash website lists the factory Saiga .410 330mm bbl (approx 13") at 3.2 kg, or just a shade over 7lbs. - http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga-410.shtml The Beretta CX4 with 16.6" bbl weighs in at 5.75 lbs - http://www.berettausa.com/products/cx4-storm/ The Kel Tec Sub-2000 is downright anorexic at 4lbs even - http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/sub-2000/.
I'm not saying don't do your PGO / SBS Saiga build. I'm just trying to help with weight info since you want something easy to carry. Also based on the pictures of the 410-K on the Izmash website 13" looks to be about as short as you can go on a Saiga bbl before you run into the gas system & have to start doing really serious modifications.
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