Bonesinium
Member
I'm legitimately confused. What is the question again? Am I suppose to be in denial of something or......?
Semi-Auto Rifles: The "Range Toy" Lie?
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towboat_er
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I bought my SKS and MAC90 16 or so years ago. Have not had mechanical failure yet.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Based on reading online forums and blogs, I'd say that I've seen the complete opposite. From what I've seen, most guys want to justify the purchase of an AR or similar rifle as something they can use for "SHTF" or other exceedingly low-probability events, when in all likelihood, the gun will be only used for occasional range sessions.
I find it kind of disheartening that so many people buy guns motivated out of a fear of low-probability events and then never really take the time to learn the joys of marksmanship.
rskent
Member
I spend quite a lot of time at a local range in Tampa Bay and I think people are buying more ARs because:
1- It’s Americas rifle
2- It’s very versatile
3- It has about the best ergonomics of any rifle
4- It has low recoil
5- Most are very accurate
6- They are very customizable without a gunsmith
7- Ammunition is relatively inexpensive
8- They are just a lot of fun to play with.
OK OK they look cool
As far as being useful. Have you looked at the news lately? Just a few days ago in St Pete there was a couple
of knuckleheads running around robbing people with an AK. Trust me, the caliber of my truck gun just went up.
9mm just isn’t going to make it any more.
As for buying lower tear rifles. I have to admit I have been buying a quite a few parts from a lower tear manufacturer
lately. Money is a little tight right now. While you can certainly tell they are lower quality. Fit and finish wise they are
a little rough around the edges but I haven’t had any failures as of yet. It just takes more time to get things running
smoothly. Number 8 above.
Just my two cents.
Steve
1- It’s Americas rifle
2- It’s very versatile
3- It has about the best ergonomics of any rifle
4- It has low recoil
5- Most are very accurate
6- They are very customizable without a gunsmith
7- Ammunition is relatively inexpensive
8- They are just a lot of fun to play with.
OK OK they look cool
As far as being useful. Have you looked at the news lately? Just a few days ago in St Pete there was a couple
of knuckleheads running around robbing people with an AK. Trust me, the caliber of my truck gun just went up.
9mm just isn’t going to make it any more.
As for buying lower tear rifles. I have to admit I have been buying a quite a few parts from a lower tear manufacturer
lately. Money is a little tight right now. While you can certainly tell they are lower quality. Fit and finish wise they are
a little rough around the edges but I haven’t had any failures as of yet. It just takes more time to get things running
smoothly. Number 8 above.
Just my two cents.
Steve
Sergei Mosin
Member
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The SHTF/mall ninja factor is one of the reasons I don't own an AR. There's a negative connotation there. (That, and I'm a traditionalist at heart - I view semi-automatic rifles with suspicion and plastic guns with horror. I'm still not convinced smokeless powder won't turn out to be just another fad. But anyway.) If I ever do get an AR, it won't be of the tricked-out tacticool type; it'll be as close to a replica of an M16Ax as I can manage, to fill a hole in my American military collection that won't ever be filled with a genuine USGI weapon.
35 Whelen
Member
I think so many people are ashamed to admit they want to hunt with their "assault" rifles is for a legitimate reason: it may not exactly look right to see someone in the deer stand cradling a rifle with a 30 round clip protruding from it. Non-hunters will likely imagine said hunter spraying bullets all over the woods.
Agreed. I've noticed over and over and over that owners of AK's and AR's gleefully describe in detail every trinket and gadget they clamped to their rifle, sometimes to the point that the add-ons surely weigh more than the rifle, yet they couldn't begin to tell you how accurate the rifle is.
Me too...well didn't own one, but do now. Like others I resisted because AR types are EVERYWHERE. I shoot High Power some and at matches 99% of the competitors are shooting AR's or some variation thereof.
Whether I keep mine remains to be seen. Depends alot on how well it shoots.
35W
Agreed. I've noticed over and over and over that owners of AK's and AR's gleefully describe in detail every trinket and gadget they clamped to their rifle, sometimes to the point that the add-ons surely weigh more than the rifle, yet they couldn't begin to tell you how accurate the rifle is.
Me too...well didn't own one, but do now. Like others I resisted because AR types are EVERYWHERE. I shoot High Power some and at matches 99% of the competitors are shooting AR's or some variation thereof.
Whether I keep mine remains to be seen. Depends alot on how well it shoots.
35W
kimbershot
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i like ar's. i like to bang away and make noise and holes. i like to tap steel. i've had factory rifles and made my own. right now i only have a dedicated 22 upper--cheap and fun to shoot. i am planning on putting together another m-4 with a stripped lower/an in the white barrel that i'll finish and other individual parts. estimated total cost will be around 500. not a bad deal. when you build your own--you can get a better understanding of how stuff fits/works and your confidence level will skyrocket. never had a glitch with any of my rifles and no one knows the difference it i've spent 500--to several thousands. as far as hunting--i would opt for one of the larger calibers available and match it to the game. most state laws limit mag capacity--so if an ar rocks your boat-go for it
also looking at a semi auto tommy gun as i load 45acp for several 1911's--talk about a range toy!
also looking at a semi auto tommy gun
as i load 45acp for several 1911's--talk about a range toy!Complete agreement with the above, what concerns me is the mall ninja crowd and various forums that speak as if gearing up for war, of courses purchase the best of what you can afford or need. Truthfully I believe it gives all gun owners and those who own AR's a bad rap. I've bought firearms 50+years all were because I enjoy shooting/hunting and view it as a hobby not as if my life is threated each day,self defense with firearm ownership is a given IMO.
Welding Rod
Member
Regarding the "do-dads and gadgets", again, this is just not something I have seen myself. I have seen lots of shooters at the range with ARs and I can't remember ever seeing one with any gadgets what-so-ever.
Again, I suppose it must be a regional thing, or perhaps an urban v. rural thing.
Again, I suppose it must be a regional thing, or perhaps an urban v. rural thing.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
I find it somewhat amusing that people constantly make disparaging remarks about "useless doo-dads" or the like attached to rifles, but rarely, if ever, actually specify what attachments are so useless or how the determination of utility (or lack thereof) was made.
Welding Rod
Member
Exactly. It would be rediculous to call a quality light a useless gadget for example.
Sergei Mosin
Member
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A light gives away your position and provides your opponent something to aim at, so it's a useless gadget. There, see how easy that was?
(I will now crawl back into my cave with the other Luddites...)
(I will now crawl back into my cave with the other Luddites...)
Sure, if you have absolutley no idea how to properly use a weapon mounted light.
The utility is determined by the user.
35 Whelen
Member
I wanna try!!! Let's see....A muzzle brake will deafen you and really won't reduce recoil because there's almost no recoil on a 7 lb. rifle that has 7 lbs. of grips, flashlights, electronic sights and a bi-pod firing a diminutive 5.56x45mm cartridge.
Hey!!! That really WAS easy!!!
35W
Ug the trolls got me...
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Well, I guess that answers the first part of my query about what accessories are "useless."
Now if only the second part about how those conclusions were drawn (direct experience, training, etc.) were to be actually addressed...
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk
Now if only the second part about how those conclusions were drawn (direct experience, training, etc.) were to be actually addressed...
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk
tahunua001
Member
I usually try to skirt certain issues with my inquiries because this being a discussion based forum, everyone has their own opinions that I do not necessarily agree with and I don't want to have my thread closed because someone is rubbing me the wrong way and I get defensive and start flaming.
for instance, (used for illustration purposes only)
I'm looking for a bolt action rifle in 5.45x39mm so I can start forcing myself to concentrate on hitting a target the first time rather than getting 30 chances to do it but I want to save money on ammo. I might also want to use it as varmint rifle or even a light deer rifle if I ever decide I want to challenge myself
one guys going to say that a precision rifle is pointless if all you are going to shoot is cheap surplus
another is going to say that 5.45 is going to be too light for deer and I'm better off getting a 30-06 and practicing that way.
another is going to say that if he wanted a 5.45, he would get a battle rifle and use it for homedefense.
I would politely point out that all I want is a training wheels type gun that will shoot cheap ammo to get me back to the basics of shooting rather than a 1000 yard tack driver, that has similar recoil to an already existing rifle in my collection and I really just wanted a few models to compare for the purpose.
another guy would talk about how a 22 bolt gun would be so much better suited to the tasks I outlined since the ammo is even cheaper and has no felt recoil.
another will point out that illinois does not allow hunting with a 22 cal bullet or smaller
I would point out that rimfires are illegal to even hunt varmints in my state but centerfire rounds are unrestricted and the rest of the thread would become the minimum caliber requirement to take a certain animal that will eventually be closed by a moderator and my question is as of yet, not answered.
I
know what I want, I know the rounds limitations, I know the guns limitations I know what applications I feel comfortable using it for and what not to but everyone else has their own way of interpreting a query and will zero in on the topic that holds the most interest to them
one guy centers on cost per round
one guy zeros in on ammo efficiency
another concentrates on bolt actions limitations
another concentrates on hunting ethics
all of them have a good point but none of them are actually concentration on the actual question involved.
I actually started a thread like that a while back and that is a very similar breakdown of how far it went and what information I got out of it
that is why now i simply say that I want something that can kill the paper plate on a fenceost
for instance, (used for illustration purposes only)
I'm looking for a bolt action rifle in 5.45x39mm so I can start forcing myself to concentrate on hitting a target the first time rather than getting 30 chances to do it but I want to save money on ammo. I might also want to use it as varmint rifle or even a light deer rifle if I ever decide I want to challenge myself
one guys going to say that a precision rifle is pointless if all you are going to shoot is cheap surplus
another is going to say that 5.45 is going to be too light for deer and I'm better off getting a 30-06 and practicing that way.
another is going to say that if he wanted a 5.45, he would get a battle rifle and use it for homedefense.
I would politely point out that all I want is a training wheels type gun that will shoot cheap ammo to get me back to the basics of shooting rather than a 1000 yard tack driver, that has similar recoil to an already existing rifle in my collection and I really just wanted a few models to compare for the purpose.
another guy would talk about how a 22 bolt gun would be so much better suited to the tasks I outlined since the ammo is even cheaper and has no felt recoil.
another will point out that illinois does not allow hunting with a 22 cal bullet or smaller
I would point out that rimfires are illegal to even hunt varmints in my state but centerfire rounds are unrestricted and the rest of the thread would become the minimum caliber requirement to take a certain animal that will eventually be closed by a moderator and my question is as of yet, not answered.
I
know what I want, I know the rounds limitations, I know the guns limitations I know what applications I feel comfortable using it for and what not to but everyone else has their own way of interpreting a query and will zero in on the topic that holds the most interest to them
one guy centers on cost per round
one guy zeros in on ammo efficiency
another concentrates on bolt actions limitations
another concentrates on hunting ethics
all of them have a good point but none of them are actually concentration on the actual question involved.
I actually started a thread like that a while back and that is a very similar breakdown of how far it went and what information I got out of it
that is why now i simply say that I want something that can kill the paper plate on a fenceost
surfinUSA
Member
So many of these discussions revolve around nothing more than fear. Whether its SHTF or there might be a bear in my back yard or where ever else I'm walking. The majority is just outright nonsense from people that have never been there or done any of that.
I was at ground zero for Andrew in 92. The SHTF and the looting started even before the wind stopped. The police couldn't respond to most calls and even after the storm was long gone couldn't get to emergencies in what would normally be considered a timely manner. So what was the gun of choice?
As usual any gun you had was a good gun, maybe not the best, but any gun would work. At my house it was nothing fancy 38 specials or 45s and a shotgun. No worries at all.
As far as I'm concerned, a black rifle is like any other and depending on the caliber is as good as any other depending on the job. No different than WWI soldiers coming home and wanting a bolt gun because the used one during the war. Its really a matter of like or want not a matter of need.
I was at ground zero for Andrew in 92. The SHTF and the looting started even before the wind stopped. The police couldn't respond to most calls and even after the storm was long gone couldn't get to emergencies in what would normally be considered a timely manner. So what was the gun of choice?
As usual any gun you had was a good gun, maybe not the best, but any gun would work. At my house it was nothing fancy 38 specials or 45s and a shotgun. No worries at all.
As far as I'm concerned, a black rifle is like any other and depending on the caliber is as good as any other depending on the job. No different than WWI soldiers coming home and wanting a bolt gun because the used one during the war. Its really a matter of like or want not a matter of need.
JohnBiltz
Member
ARs have been around for a long time, going on what 45 years? I'm retired military, Infantry in fact. I bought an AR mainly because its what I carried in my youth, my glory days. I don't see where I'm any different than some vet who bought a M1 back in '54. Never wanted one while I was in the service.
I think it actually goes further than you think. Not only with the semi autos but people buying bolt action rifles in .223 caliber. Other then a military rifle I see no use for the .223. I look at it like the people that go to watch a football game and have to wear the jersey.
Tallinar
Member
I'm a relativiely young shooter still (26 years old), and in my experience, I'd have to agree with the notion that many shooters of my generation seem to buy AR's and AK47's simply on whim because they are cool and popular. I have seen many guys buy them, and - like others have noted here - realize they are throwing a quarter downrange with every shot (or more), and quickly get tired of their toy. Few actually get into true, disciplined marksmanship with them.
Most (but not all) of my peers whom I work with and interact with on a daily basis fall into one of two categories. a) They've never fired a gun. b) They own or want to own an AR or AK47.
I was fortunate to grow up under a father and grandfather who were great gun advocates. I attended junior rifle club, and after that was blessed to end up growing up on M1's and Enfields. I've had no real experience with black rifles, though I have had a bit of exposure to high power rifle competition. I had the pleasure of shooting a "for fun" un-recorded CMP Garand (or other prior service rifle) match today with Dad. I shot his old H&R M1, and he shot his pet Krag.
Anyway I will say this. In my limited exposure to real high power rifle competition, those AR15's can sure perform, and it's comforting/amazing to see real marksman using them. Whatever the media-and-video-game-crazed stigma on these "assault rifles" may be, at the end of the day it's the CMP shooters I remember.
Most (but not all) of my peers whom I work with and interact with on a daily basis fall into one of two categories. a) They've never fired a gun. b) They own or want to own an AR or AK47.
I was fortunate to grow up under a father and grandfather who were great gun advocates. I attended junior rifle club, and after that was blessed to end up growing up on M1's and Enfields. I've had no real experience with black rifles, though I have had a bit of exposure to high power rifle competition. I had the pleasure of shooting a "for fun" un-recorded CMP Garand (or other prior service rifle) match today with Dad. I shot his old H&R M1, and he shot his pet Krag.
Anyway I will say this. In my limited exposure to real high power rifle competition, those AR15's can sure perform, and it's comforting/amazing to see real marksman using them. Whatever the media-and-video-game-crazed stigma on these "assault rifles" may be, at the end of the day it's the CMP shooters I remember.
BrocLuno
Member
Well let's see? I was at the range a few days ago with two of my semi-autos (M1's) and as I looked up and down the line I saw a small crowd at the 50 yd line playing with black guns - the three of us function testing some CMP arrivals on the 100 yd range - two guys playing real slow fire with scoped bolts on the 200 yd range - and about 10 hand gunners on the 25 yd range.
The most comical group was the crowd on the 50 yd range. Mostly teens and mostly running back and forth swapping magazines, etc. Looked to be playing with just what the OP described. I don't know what their fantasies are like (?), but just because they have a rifle, I don't think they are at all prepared for a social disaster or self defense?
Neither were most of the hand gunners. The guys that were ready to deal were the slow fire guys working the 200 yd range. Either self taught or ex-military. They were not missing by much and they understood ballistics and trajectory, wind and lighting.
So the bottom line is that the black rifles were "range toys" being used for exactly that. That may not have been the fantasy scenario that the "kids" banter around while swapping parts or cleaning them, but it's what they end up doing - range time.
The most comical group was the crowd on the 50 yd range. Mostly teens and mostly running back and forth swapping magazines, etc. Looked to be playing with just what the OP described. I don't know what their fantasies are like (?), but just because they have a rifle, I don't think they are at all prepared for a social disaster or self defense?
Neither were most of the hand gunners. The guys that were ready to deal were the slow fire guys working the 200 yd range. Either self taught or ex-military. They were not missing by much and they understood ballistics and trajectory, wind and lighting.
So the bottom line is that the black rifles were "range toys" being used for exactly that. That may not have been the fantasy scenario that the "kids" banter around while swapping parts or cleaning them, but it's what they end up doing - range time.
mortablunt
Member
The stated purpose of black rifles varies depending on where you are and who you are with. Back at home, I can reasonably state that I have my Beretta Cx4 because it's for home defense and target practice. If I came out as a current gun owner at college, I'd tell the Brady people here that it's pretty much a toy or maybe a light sporting gun. I really couldn't bluntly tell my gun-hating classmates that it is for 'making holes in people who are try to kill me'. However, if I say that it's just a hobby, then I would get away with it a lot more easily. If I imply that I keep a gun in order to use as a weapon, that screams to them 'crazy NRA extremist'. If I imply that I'm just a mild enthusiast, it just simply says: 'likes guns, but isn't crazy'.
I don't really have a problem with modern style guns. I'm not one of those gun owners who thinks that the most technologically advanced gun anyone could ever need, or should want, is an M1 Garand. The features that make AK's good fighting guns also make them great defense guns, practice guns, and range guns.
I don't really have a problem with modern style guns. I'm not one of those gun owners who thinks that the most technologically advanced gun anyone could ever need, or should want, is an M1 Garand. The features that make AK's good fighting guns also make them great defense guns, practice guns, and range guns.
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