Seriously: Is it time to start USING the Second Amendment?

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Just food for thought

all that are feeding this thread have all under a hundred posts each..........







trolling again Special Agent Smuck???????



And yes my tinfoil hat is a snug fit tonight
:D :D :D

(and yes I know mine is well under a hundred posts buuuuuuut look at my registration date)
 
all that are feeding this thread have all under a hundred posts each..........

Not sure what you mean by "feeding", since there are a number of posts from megaposters. A reflection of neophyte thinking is not necessarily trolling. You might want to mentor a little bit and add some substance by way of balancing comments. My own ideas are quite different than they were a couple of years ago.
 
This is my opinion. The 2d Amendment along with the rest of the Constitution is becomming a moot point.

As an example look at the recent sunset of the AWB. Each state is allowed to keep its own AWB in effect. The sunset will only effect parts of the country, not the ENTIRE country. Think "states rights" when it convenently suites the powers to be.

I think that the new tactic of the government is going to be to pressure the states to enact what the federal government wants.

This decentralized the laws that nueters the Constitution by heralding "states rights" when it pleases the Federal Government.

The people will look to the Federal Government is let off the hook and allows more Bush's to be elected.

California and Illinois gun laws are going to be enacted in each of our states sometime down the road.

Some of you may not believe this, but this is the UN agenda to disarm America.

What can we do to stop this, not only the errosion of the 2d Amendment, but the errosion of the entire Constitution?

I know what needs to be done and so do many of you- and its not calling, writing, voting, or sending e-mails.
 
Violence is only justified if it is in self defense. It should always be the last resort. If you can't peacefully change unjust California laws, then why not just move to a more free state? If you are seriously willing to shoot LEOs over a .50BMG...then why aren't you willing to move someplace where you won't have to? "where tyranny reigns, you can fight, flee, or wear the chains" I suggest you either flee, or get used to the new link on your chains....the fight option will end badly for you in the current situation, and after Kali makes an example of you (assuming you live through it) do you really think it will all have been worth it?
 
Not yet...

All through this thread we've been talking in terms of "The PRK's dun gone an' banned da Fiddy!..."

Uh, nope. I beg to differ.

All the new law does is require that .50's be registered as Assault Weapons under provisions of the existing AW law.

That law DOES NOT BAN possesion of AW's.

It WILL NOT BE ILLEGAL TO OWN THEM.

It simply requires their registration. Granted, registration equates to confiscation, but nobody's tried to confiscate all the handguns yet, and they've had required registration for YEARS.

What the AW law does is make it illegal to transfer/buy AW's within the state. If you wanna sell one, it's gotta be outta state. You wanna buy one, yer SOL.

Got one ALREADY? Good on yer. You get to keep it, provided you register it.

What you're NOT allowed to own, what's ACTUALLY BANNED, is UN-registered AW's.

AW registration compliance in this state is DISMAL. DOJ estimates it at around 10% of existing guns. But UNLIKE pistols, they have no real idea of where they actually are. DROS (Departmental Registration Of Sale) fees applied to long guns record nothing, as the background check for a long gun with DOJ has no gun-specific information, like caliber or serial number, sent in to DOJ with the background check request.

They don't know where they are. That makes it hard to bang on doors and round 'em up. All they can do is restrict further sales in hopes of diminishing the supply. It's going to take a LOOONG time for all of the current registered AW owners to die off. Until then, one could reasonably expect to see them turn up at ranges and such. Ranges, in my experience, DO NOT call the police when someone brings a gun of 'iffy' legality to shoot, they just boot the offender out. They don't WANT the role of enforcement, but they don't want to be 'friendly', per se.

I imagine it's going to take years and years until any enforcement agency would be justified in taking the time to validate the registration of every AW-style gun they might see, presuming they even see them at all. As stated, gun owners are a law-abiding lot, who rarely receive LE scrutiny. With a 90% non-compliance rate, I think there's going to be PLENTY of "Assault Weapons" in reserve to up-end a heavy-handed Gubmint should said Gubmint decide to start ultimate tyranny by first coming to collect the guns they know about. And that doesn't include all the rest of the NON AW-type guns.

Militarily obsolete, as most bolt guns could be considered to be, is a far cry from 'ineffective'. Should Gubmint-sponsored JBT's of some sort start Feinsteining the registered gunlist, (Feinsteining="Round them up, Mr. and Mrs America, turn them all in".) that being about the only circumstance I can imagine that even BEGINS to merit the idea of armed resistance, there's going to be 'a rifle behind every blade of grass' potentially primed to 'vote from the rooftops', (Which targets POLICY MAKERS, not field enforcers, BTW.) should so drastic a response prove to be neccessary.

I don't think the legiscritters are arrogant/confident enough in their position to think they can get away with Feinsteining. Restricting sales is not banning possesion. They haven't even banned possesion of class III stuff, but you haven't been able to legally BUY any of it in this state for YEARS.

So once again, Korny Kaliforny displays it's arrogance before the rest of the nation by exporting perceived 'dangers' (They're dangerous, right? Capable of causing death and mayhem? Bad thing to have around loose where criminals can get to 'em? That's the rationale behind trying to reduce their numbers, isnt it?) to the REST of the nation that we couldn't give a rat's behind about because we're all Better Than You, Or At Least More Equal.

Nice attitude, eh? We think it's a problem, so you deal with it. We can't be bothered, but it's OK if YOU have to deal with the crime-'n-mayhem-machines we ship out because they frighten us. Kinda reminds me of when Kennedy opened Florida's ports to Cuba, whereupon Castro emptied his prisons onto our shores, touching off a rather brutal and virulent crime wave. I suppose having Korny Kaliforny play the role of Evil Commie Castro isn't too much of a stretch.

Doesn't speak to well of our opinion of the rest of the U.S. though, does it?

Naturally, you'd never get the Gubmint to admit the REAL reason they want to export these guns: They leave WAY TOO MUCH POWER in the hands of the Great Unwashed. That they KNOW they're skating on thin ice, and that the level of the undercurrent of dis-satisfaction is rising. Ruins all those delicately-crafted pretenses they've stacked up to stand on so they can look down on us and feel superior enough to make all our decisions for us, because they know better.

Pretenses are like snow: a good dose of sunlight would leave these arrogant legiscritters fumbling in a lot of mud.

That being said, I repeat: Revolution? Not yet...


Re: the initiative idea.

Good idea. Here's another one. Send up an initiative requiring a sunset clause in all legislation passed from here-on out. That'd keep the critters in the Capital sty busy defending and trying to renew existing laws they want to preserve, so they have a lot less time trying to establish that they're accomplishing something for their salaries by passing ever more laws. A Legislature with time on it's hands is the tyrant's workshop.

We need to ram this one through on a Federal level too, which is how I originally was informed of this idea either here or on TFL. I'd cite a credit to the source, but I can't remember who it was. I wish I could, as it's a FANTASTIC idea, and an obvious solution to the constant encroachment of laws on our freedoms and liberties.

"When motivated by the Media Microscope under the Public Eye, an Idle Legislature tries to justify it's paycheck by becoming the Tyrant's Workshop, passing ever more laws to the detriment of Civil Liberty."--H_R_G

How's THAT for a hot one! :D;):D
 
California and Illinois gun laws are going to be enacted in each of our states sometime down the road. - Joey2

I doubt it. Recognize that neither of those States has the RKBA in its Constitution.

The 2nd Amendment and a couple others are still electives for States, because Supreme Court cases have either not called upon the 14th Amendment, or the Court has resisted a confrontation. Before getting lost in the trees with various workaround ideas, do not lose sight of what it would really take to set all this State-centric gun control stuff right.

Yes, the SCOTUS would first have to get it straight what the 2nd Amendment means. The basic argument though is that it is unacceptable for US citizenship to mean different things in different States. Only matters of State scope have anything to do with "States' rights". Selective secession is not what the Constitution intended.
 
I doubt that any attempt by gun owners in California to use legal action with the Second Amendment as a basis will work. During the last half of the 20th century much of the Constitution - and in particular the Second Amendment - were gutted by decisions passed down by left-wing judges and courts.

These courts have repeatedly said that the Second Amendment does not protect anyone's individual right to own this or that kind of firearm. In turn the US Supreme Court has either refused to hear challenges to these lower-court decisions, or has supported them.

So long as the Federal Court System is dominated by left-wing judges this situation will not change. The only thing that would change it would be the election - over a long period of time - of conservative presidents and congresses that truly believed in the Constitution and Bill of Rights as this country's founders did. Then as they either died or retired the current judges would be replaced with ones that had views much like out own.

But at this point in our history I don't see that happening.
 
These courts have repeatedly said that the Second Amendment does not protect anyone's individual right to own this or that kind of firearm. In turn the US Supreme Court has either refused to hear challenges to these lower-court decisions, or has supported them.

None of the cases addressed the 2nd Amendment head on. That's what needs to stop. Initial claims are relatively petty and cannot be reformulated to grander claims just for the Supreme Court. If you look at why cases were refused or why rulings were so narrow, you would know how to design a case with much greater potential impact. The case would need to start with a constitutional law specialist, deliberately intending that the case deafult up the chain of Courts and anticipating resistance along the way.

One poor slob who got caught by the system is not going to be able to finance that in a reactive mode. 50,000 petitioners in a class action might be a different matter.

The DOJ side would be following Dept. stated policy that gun ownership is an individual right. The President could be quoted as well.

I believe the only impediment is the inability to present the SCOTUS with the right case. Gun laws will not be repealed. If anything, they will be set aside by the High Court.

My favorite is amending the 14th Amendment to make it immediately effective in all States across the board. Then let them sweat about what the 2nd Amendment really means.
 
RealGun:

Sure they have. The most recent and best was a case out of the 5th Circuit Appeals Court in New Orleans concerning a case that originated in Texas. It was well documented, and supported the "individual right" interpretation of the Second Amendment.

The Bush Justice Department recommended that the Supreme Court not review the case, and they didn't. In spite of their official position they have yet to support, or even ask the Supreme Court to review any case involving a Second Amendment component. On the other hand they have done they're best to block several cases that were under consideration. Considering the make-up of the present Supreme Court this might have been wise. It’s a judgment call you’ll have to make for yourself.

I tried to find you a link because the decision is well worth reading. Unfortunately the site that used to have it wasn't working.
 
How to undo what has been done?

This may be rather naive of me to say, but:

To undo what has been done = Media coverage and lots of money to get the message to Joe Sixpack and Suzy Soccermom.
Oleg is on the right track with his posters.

Hey, it works for the anti's.

Imagine a top four tv network, "The Freedom Channel".

8:00 am - "Politically Correct and the 1st amendment"
9:00 am - "Freedom Channel Face Off - Chris W. Cox .vs. Michael Moore"
10:00 am - "Meet a Founding Father presents: Thomas Jefferson"
11:00 am - "Root Cause: The American Civil War"
12:00 pm - "We the people" - News
1:00 pm - "Innocents Betrayed"
3:00 pm - " My story: RKBA saved my daughter from a rapist"
4:00 pm - "Treason and Treachery: Lawmakers this week"
5:00 pm - "Eye for an Eye - Making the punishment fit the crime"


and so on. The titles probably would not interest most of the brain dead masses, so catchy titles and interesting prologues would of course have to be created. We could use some of the buzz words that the liberals use, well, liberally: Deadly, killer, bloody, ghastly, death dealing, spraying, assault, massive, murdering, terrorist, etc..
 
The most recent and best was a case out of the 5th Circuit Appeals Court in New Orleans concerning a case that originated in Texas. - Old Fuff

If you mean U.S. v. Emerson, it's not that hard to find. It is not a good case, because waving a gun at his wife in front of a child while under a court restraining order is likely not what the Constitution had in mind. A better case is without criminal liability but simply claiming that the State is prohibiting exercise of your 2nd Amendment rights.

Short article on U.S. v. Emerson

U.S. v. Emerson published opinion
 
......It's about time we secede and form a Confederacy!


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Simply shooting an LEO in the gut because he comes to enforce a law you don't like is first degree murder

I'm sure that is what many Jews felt when they were rounded up and later murdered like dogs by the Nazis. Cliché? Yes. Truth? Definitely.

I'm not trying to be Mr. Hardcore here but I don't understand why so many people here have this hang-up about killing a LEO or your next-door neighbor. Murder is simply a term defined by the group in power, not by what is innately right or wrong (which is another matter completely). The group in control determines who is ok to kill and who is not ok to kill, i.e. burglars and innocent civilians respectively for many states. Hear me out…

If someone comes to your door to take your rights/life/whatever and you kill them, you are defending yourself/beliefs/rights against your enemy at that time. It is only later that your decision is classified as murder/self-defense/whatever by popular opinion (jury/press/judge). Many people consider Nazis to be bad and the Jews to be their victims but not everyone feels that way, even today. There are plenty of people who will tell you that the Jews got what they deserved for a plethora of reasons based on emotional hatred and prejudice.

Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of an uninvolved, innocent third party to force the acquiescense of another party

Humans vilify those that they wish to destroy, subjugate, or rule. Look at some WWII propaganda or better yet watch some original Popeye cartoons to see how you shape the opinion of the people to suit the political needs of a war. We bombed factories where people worked in WWII to stop their production, but those factories were staffed with “innocent†people. They were doing the job their country asked them to do and we killed them to force their military to surrender. What about the other people who paid the taxes that the government used to wage the war, are they innocent? We firebombed Japan and then dropped the nuke on them, so don’t act like we, the US, have a history of respecting so called “innocents.†Innocence is, just like murder, simply defined by those in control of killing people.

Get real here. Nobody can be completely innocent in this world when it comes to dealing out death. You must, in your mind, form a reason that it is okay to kill anyone or anything. The views of who is okay to kill today are completely different from what they were a decade ago and they are different from person to person. Most people here probably would have been in favor of dropping the bomb back in WWII, even if it did kill innocent people because it would keep our soldiers from dying.

One thing is that you have been conditioned since birth to follow the law and respect the police. Then again you have never suffered under those police and have no real reason to consider their death as an acceptable event. I bet there are plenty of Russians who don’t trust the police anymore after Stalin used them to drag off innocents and murder them. Were those police just enforcing a law that the Russians didn’t like? Were they innocent men just doing what they were instructed by the law to do, right?

Here is the question you should be asking yourself, given the context of this thread, “Is killing my neighbor/LEO/whoever a greater evil than what my neighbor/LEO/whoever wishes to perpetrate against me?â€

I’m not advocating the death of anyone but think about it logically and come to your decision. Would you kill another person because they were sent to disarm you (In this case take away your 2nd Amendment right)? If the answer is yes then it isn’t murder for you. If the answer is no, then it is murder for you. Quit injecting your emotion and conditioning into the argument, it is a simple question to answer.

(Edit, wrong button hit before checking grammer :banghead: )
 
A great deal is based on point of view

War and conflict, even crime and punishment are based on what one views as moral or immoral. To kill someone is often murder (depending on the circumstances), yet the state condones murder through capital punishment. One may say that killing is justified in war, but killing is killing no matter what one wishes to call it. We also perform abortions, which is killing as well, in the country. The state says what killing is murder and what is justified, just as each person decides for themself, usually, what is moral and immoral killing.

If one is the Gestapo or SS soldier in Germany, killing a Jew, Gypsy, or other stated defined "undesirable" was not wrong, it was even rewarded. The same for supporters of Stalin and Lenin, doing the state's bidding and killing as ordered, was rewarded. Well, until they were killed too at the whim of the state. Or even in the Communist Revolution in China after WW2, if you were an educated person, more than likely you ended up "reeducated", or killed.

History has shown us numerous examples of what happens when governments decide to deal with those they feel are "undesirable." Does this mean we start a preemptive revolution? No, not at all. But by the same token, when the British of our day come marching toward the militia arsenal of our day, do you let them take the last thing that will ensure freedom and liberty or do you stand your ground and fight?

Just like the partisans fighting in Nazi-controlled France, Italy or Poland, for some examples, they had to make tough choices as well. I am sure they had to kill local police officers and neighbors as well as the Nazis. Under the circumstances of that situation, the killings were justified.

As to the topic at hand, what choice does one make if the only reason they are being singled out, targeted, arrested or being sought out is because of what they believe, think or own, let alone racial or religious background? I would say I am excluding criminals from this question, but what happens if just being a gun owner is a crime in itself in a hypothetical situation, or even a historical one?

I am not advocating violence nor am I saying that persuing peaceful means at any cost is the answer either. Just like Chanselor Chamberlain in the years before WW2 and the League of Nations, pursuing peace at all costs is costly indeed. But using force without a reasonable justificiation isn't a solution either. I would say that Teddy Roosevelt said it best, "Speak softly, but carry a bit stick."

Each person has to do soul-searching and some profoundly deep thinking to come up with what they feel is the right answer to this question.
 
Since this thread was inspired by my own frustrated rhetorical questions, I should probably answer them.

Will I start shooting over .50-BMG rifles? Of course not! Killing is always wrong, and violence solves nothing. Right? Besides, the best way to survive an attack is to give the attackers what they want. Right?

Seriously, though, I will redouble my political efforts. I’ll donate more money where it’s needed. I’ll write more letters when I can. I’ll support pro-RKBA groups as much as possible. I’ll even come out of the closet as a gun owner, if it helps.

But someday California will probably make me into a criminal. When that day comes, I will have no choice but to flee the state or start taking it at its word. Most likely, I will choose life as a refugee, but I will always wonder what a few well-placed shots might have accomplished.

~G. Fink
 
Most likely, I will choose life as a refugee, but I will always wonder what a few well-placed shots might have accomplished

Quite likely, your death and a smallish tombstone that will soon be forgotten along with your act of foolishness. Kinda like that turd McVeigh.
 
Sponsor a proposition to outlaw "ghost voting." That is a start.

Ghost voting is already illegal. The assembly rules are clear that no member shall operate the voting device of another member.

Laws are ignored in PRK by the powerful... The law does not apply to them, only to us peons.

Tyrrany already exists in PRK. It's getting close to time to do something about it.
 
Many people need to be aware that We the People HAVE petitioned the government for a redressing of grievances. You really need to get out more and get active.

No this is NOT a joke and not a scam of any kind. We the People have sued the U.S. Government in court because they have not responded to a list of several hundred grievances.

Read about it here:
http://www.givemeliberty.org/
 
The problem is that, while ghost voting is illegal, the law is utterly toothless. You don't need a proposition to make it illegal, you need a proposition to:

1. Specify who has standing to take it to court.

2. Establish that it IS "judiciable". That the courts don't have any choice about accepting the cases.

3. Arrange for video monitoring of the legislature to preserve proof that it's taking place.

4. Nail down that laws "enacted" by ghost voting are null and void.

and,

5. Set penalties for ghost voting, up to and including expulsion from the legislature.
 
Ghost voting is already illegal. The assembly rules are clear that no member shall operate the voting device of another member.
Then you clearly have governmental institutional corruption. You have crooks and worse pushing the levers of power. You are being governed by people who use the power of the gun to coerse (?sp) tax money from your pockets.

In other words, you don't have a state, you have a kelptocracy.

Now what do you do? At an absolute minimum I'd think filing criminal charges against practicioners of ghost voting followed by a class action lawsuit. Accept as normal governmental corruption and your freedoms are limited.

A government engaged in felonious actions loses it legitimacy in a Noo Yark minute.
 
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