Severity of Lee's taper crimp die

[SRMohawk]

A few months ago I bought a set of Redding's Pro-Series Titanium Carbide dies for assembling 10mm Auto ammunition in my Dillon RL 550, thinking that I would be 'upgrading' from the Dillon dies I bought along with the press some time ago. But the taper crimp die turned out to be a huge disappointment, failing to provide enough crimp to ensure reliable feeding in either of my 10mm Auto pieces. Upon visiting a friend of mine who owns a custom ammunition manufacturing outfit in Texas City, however, I was handed a Lee taper crimp die and sent back to Houston.

And all I had to say after screwing that thing into my press and churning out a hundred rounds was; "Damn, look at the friggin' crimp on these loads!"

Question: How much can a 'severe' crimp like I'm getting with this Lee crimp die increase the pressure of my loads? I was throwing 7.8 grains of VV N3N37 into the case and seating 180-gr Zero FMJ slugs before the Lee die as well as after. But recoil from the ammo assembled with the Lee die is decidedly greater than with the Dillon or Redding dies.

 

[benedict1]

Not sure I understand the problem--if you install the Lee FC die properly you can adjust the taper crimp to almost nothing by how much you screw the knob in on the top of the die. This link from their website shows how to adjust the die--

http://www.leeprecision.com/html/HelpVideos/videos/Pistol/carbide fc die-1.wmv

You should be able to adjust it to no crimp at all.

 

[Ol` Joe]

Too much crimp and the case will bulge behind it. This acually loosens the bullet.

 

[SRMohawk]

B1,
It's confusing, I know, and in the case of both the Redding and Lee crimp dies. For one, you'd think that I could just screw the Redding die into the press more and get a more profound crimp. But it just stops turning the case mouth back toward the seated bullet well short of what is acceptable or even functional no matter how far I screw it down. On the other hand, the Lee die will quite suddenly just grab unfinished rounds right there at the case mouth, turning them back in with authority. I'm tellin' ya, it really does just bite into the unfinished load all at once. Of course, the rounds look real good and are feeding flawlessly. Spent brass shows no obvious signs of overpressure either. But the loads seem so much hotter.

I suppose I could just turn the powder bar back a few tenths of a grain. But if this ammo is still safe (not just for the gun's operator, but for the gun itself), then I'm gonna keep manufacturing and spending it.

Ya know, I really should take the gun to an outdoor range and set up the ole' chronograph to see if it's that much faster than the stuff with the 'pseudo-crimp' being generating by Redding's hardware.

 

[Delmar]

SRM, The Lee die not only crimps the mouth, but also resizes the case-called "post sizing". This can cause some issues depending on the overall diameter of the bullet and case thickness-it will resize the bullet diameter as well. If you inadvertanly press the bullet into the case at an angle, you will feel the crimp die squeeze the case.

I set up the crimp die by dialing it down to where it touches the shell holder and lock it down. Then run a loaded round in and set the adjustment to a half turn after contact. That closes the case mouth and gives me a constant diameter across the case where the bullet is seated.

I tried the full one turn on the adjustment but found that with my LSWC's, it was squeezingg the bullet diameter down and accuracy suffered a bit.

I think you're onto something with the chrono test. I'd be glad to hear what you find out.

 

[Jim Watson]

My Lee plain taper crimp .45 ACP die is as you describe, it puts a hard, short, sharp taper on the case mouth. It doesn't take much to do the job.
My Lee carbide factory crimp .45 ACP die has a much more gradual angle, the taper is adequate but it is hard to even see unless you really wind it down, and then still not as much as the plain taper crimp.
I don't know why they make them differently.

 

[HSMITH]

If you are doing anything other than just closing the bell of the case you put in for bullet seating you are doing it wrong. On a straight wall autoloader round like 10mm if you can see the crimp it is WAY overcrimped. It will increase the chances of setback, lower accuracy, and increase inconsistency.

The Redding Pro die has a very shallow angle that it crimps at for this very reason, and it is one of the best that money can buy.

Don't buy into the hype for the Lee Factory Crimp Die either, if you 'need' it that is only because something upstream is wrong.

What was the feeding problem you had? Does the gun run with factory ammo? Does it jam with all magazines? If it won't run with a .421" case mouth and a normal OAL on your reloads the problem isn't the ammo.

 

[SRMohawk]

HSmith,
Ya know, as a matter of fact the ammo I've manufactured with neither my Dillon nor Redding crimp die fed reliably in either of my tens (unless I had the factory barrel in the G20). Mind you, the G20 and LimCat both have Bar-Sto barrels in them most, if not all, of the time. And admittedly, the guns both fed the ammo passing through the Dillon dies better, not to mention with greater accuracy. But once the gun heated up a bit, I could just hang it up. Not so with this crazy, new Lee taper crimp die. The ammo coming out of this thing simply refuses to stick at any point.

And get this! The Redding taper crimp die WILL NOT bring the case mouth around a seated projectile down to less than 0.425". Of course, when I called Redding to complain, the guy I talked to told me that the measurement at the case mouth was irrelevant! Right then, I thought; "Ah, no wonder these Redding dies don't work right in the first place! The people responsible for them are friggin' idiots!!!" I mean, c'mon! How can this guy be anything but a dumbass thinking something like that? If the measurment at the case mouth was irrelevant, then the size of a barrel's chamber would also be irrelevant. At any rate, after hearing this guy try to tell me I was some kind of numbnutz redneck for thinking that such a thing was important, I started to question the accuracy and/or reliability of all the Redding equipment I own.

Delmar,
I still haven't gotten around to testing the assertion that, withstanding a true precision powder thrower, we can get greater accuracy out of our high-power rifles by simply dispensing powder charges and rather than weighing them. Remember us discussing this? The thinking being that even modern metallic cartridge propellants generate more consistent bursts of energy when dispensed in same-volume allotments rather than same-weigh allotments. I'm certain you were one of the guys that was particularly interesting in me testing this claim (made by a serious benchrest shooter who posted it at Sinclair International's board). But don't worry, I haven't forgotten about this little project.

 

[Delmar]

I agree the FCD should not be used to correct other reloading issues, and for taper crimps, I find that after properly setting up the FCD and turning the adjustment a half turn after contact takes the bell out of the case and no more.

I was also told to take the case mouth on my 45 ACP loads down to at least
.470 and some told me .468, I have found what HSMITH said to work for me. I just take the case mouth down to where I get a consistent reading across the brass where the bullet is contained. This also works for my 9MM and 40 cal.

For jacketed bullets, I seat and crimp in one stroke, but for LSWC's and Gold Dots I find that seating and crimping separately works better for me. I've heard both good and bad about Redding, and in fact use a set given to me for my 270 Win. They have been a joy to use. I do not have any experience with them for pistols. The obvious quality of the Redding die finish cannot be denied-they look better than RCBS for that matter, IMO.

SR, might it be the tighter chambers with the new barrels? I'd be interested in hearing the results as I am thinking of upgrading a barrel in my oldest Colt. It still does 4 inches at 25 yards, but if a barrel/bushing upgrade will measurably tighten things up, I might consider the purchase. The Colt barrel has over 170K through it-mostly full power loads.

 

[Delmar]

SR, I certainly do remember the claim of the powder drop vs individual measuring of charges. From what I understand, some of these drops, if used in a very consistant manner will toss a remarkably consistant charge. However, if I am loading anything more than half way towards max, I will stick to my scale.

I was once approached by a fella at the rifle range who wanted to borrow my brass hammer-I don't go to the range without my tools because I don't want something to ruin my time there, and it has been an introduction to fellow shooters having issues.

Anywhoo-this fella was shooting handloads he claimed was from his "reliable powder drop", but he had to borrow my hammer to open the bolt on his 223 Rem. He beat the thing open, chambered another round and had to smack it again. That is not a condemnation of powder drops-this fella could have had more/other issues, but I got my hammer back quickly and left. I was seriously afraid that I was going to catch shrapnel!

 

[Ol` Joe]

The case wall thickness will impact the sizeing and crimp. This is likely why the Redding guy stated the measurment wasn`t critical. The thinner cases won`t always size down and crimp enough to properly hold the bullet. Heavier walled cases can be over crimped in a die set for thinner ones and bulge behind the crimp causing feed problems.
I agree with the assesment the need for a FCD is related to other reloading problems that if addressed will likely be found if you look hard enough. Tight chambered autos always seem to be finicky with reguard to ammo geometery and can be a bear to get to work reliably with handloads and certain bullet shapes.

 

[SRMohawk]

Bloody hell! Well, at least now I won't end up with a slide embedded in my left eye socket or a $3000 custom gun in an irreparable state, because clearly this is the direction in which I was heading based on the advice you have all so generously dispensed.

Guess I'll do what the guy at Redding suggested and just send him my taper crimp die with a sample of the ammo I've assembled using it.

As for my Bar-Sto barrels, I don't know what I'm gonna do. Clearly, the chambers in these tubes are super tight. That, of course, became evident from day one when I saw the horrendous marring along the bodies of cases from ammo spent therein .

 

[HSMITH]

Who put the barrels in? Are they hard fit barrels or drop in? It makes a big difference......

 

[SRMohawk]

HSmith,
Yeah, the barrel in my Glock 20 is a drop-in job. But the barrel in my Wildcat longslide isn't. Johnny Lim (LimCat Custom Guns) out in Reno, NV is responsible for the Wildcat (one of the four chief models he offers that incorporate a mixture of STI, Ed Brown, Bar-Sto, and LimCat components).

So which one should be giving me less trouble, the gun with the drop-in barrel or the gun with the hard-fit barrel?

 

[HSMITH]

Johhny Lim does good work. I was thinking that maybe the barrels were short chambered and that was where the root cause of the problem was. I don't see Johnny letting one out of his shop without proper headspacing. A hard fit barrel will need the chamber reamed, but a drop in is usually close enough.

Can you post a picture of the marred cases? I missed that in my previous reads.

What happens when you take your loaded ammo and drop it in the barrel (barrel removed from the gun)? Does it drop all the way into the barrel and below the hood? How about some of the ammo that was crimped down really hard with the Lee die? What are the chances you are loading brass that was fired in the original Glock barrel? If so, and I gather you are using Dillon dies, you probably have bulged cases just above the rim. Take one of the rounds that doesn't fit well in the chamber and color the case with a marker. Push it into the chamber of the barrel, then pop it out and look for the marks in the marker. The Dillon dies work fantastically on a progressive press due to the big chamfer at the entrance of the die, the downside to this is that they won't go down low enough on the case to eliminate the 'Glock bulge' that you get with just about any factory chambered barrel. If this is the case a standard Lee carbide sizer will 'fix' the problem, I prefer the EGW undersize version of the Lee die due to more case tension to prevent setback and also slightly smaller cases are more reliable in a very tight match chamber.

Hope I haven't confused you too much, trying to peck this out between phone calls isn't good for creating much flow to the post......

 

[callgood]

I use the FCD on all my semi auto pistols. I screw it in about 5/8s of a turn past contact. This leaves a faint impression on the bullet. Anything more is overkill. Much less and I have to thumb the slide to get lockup- not enough crimp. I use a Forster Coax press, so once I get them set I lock the split ring and no more tinkering.

I used the Lee roll crimp on .357 mag. Got good groups but the fps were all over the place. Only tried on load and got sidetracked loading for .223. Where does the time go?

 

[SRMohawk]

HSmith,
Don't worry about confusing me when you've got important stuff to tell me. It's true, I'm mildly mentally retarded (i.e. have ADD), but in my desperate need to compensate, I will doggedly apply what little portion of undiseased brain I have left to my problems until I've worked through them. That said, permit me to clarify a few things.

First, all the brass I've been using of late is new (never-spent) Starline brand. I ordered 4 cases (2000 10mm Auto and 2000 .45 ACP) a couple months ago and have been wading through it since. So far, I've probably spent 800 peices of the 10mm Auto stuff in question. Mind you, this is the first time I've ever used Starline brass. Previously, I've only used Winchester. Also, none of the ammo I've assembled and spent using this Starline brass has been spent through my factory Glock 20 barrel, and none of it has been resized and spent again thus far. Now, it would be unfair to say that the Winchester brass I've previously used has always worked better since I only got my LimCat late last year and only bought the drop-in Bar-Sto barrel for my G20 a couple months prior to that. In fact, I had problems with the ammo that incorporated Winchester brass as well. They just weren't as severe.

Here's the shocking part: I haven't made any measurement or weight comparisons between the Starline brass and what little new Winchester brass I have on hand. I also haven't been sizing it! You see, I've never sized new, unfired handgun cases. I've always thought it was unnecessary. After all, we aren't dealing with precision rifles, right? Additionally, I've also thought it weakened the cases slightly. Consequently, when I've got new cases in hand, I just throw them under the first stage of my press, prime them, and then rotate them under the powder thrower. Also, I have NO idea as to whether these barrels have adequate headspace since I've NEVER thought to throw a loaded round into the chambers when I had the guns disassembled.

Told you I was retarded !

The thing that really gets me here is that since I started using this Lee taper crimp die, neither of the subject guns will fail. I've done some volume drills at the range where I've really heated them up, too. Still, they function flawlessly (albeit less accurately) as long as the ammo I feed them was manufactured using this little Lee taper crimp die. I tell you, HS, I saw how much of a difference that Lee die made and I was as happy as when I saw how much more accurate my rifles became when I started turning case necks! Nonetheless, my intuition (Yes, retards still have good intuition! That's why there are idiot savants.) tells me that this **** is dangerous! It's why I came to you guys in the first place.

 

[BluesBear]

While it's not always necessary to size virgin brass I have found that it is nonetheless prudent to do so. In the past I have found noticable variations even within the same lot number.
Companies try to produce brass to be within SAAMI specifications but they also produce it with the expectation that it will be sized before initial use.
Therefore it may or not be within the tolerences of your loading dies.

Sizing virgin brass minimizes any manufacturing inconsistencies and also helps insure a level playing field when compared to previously fired cases.

No it will not weaken them since the two memesis to brass is excess pressure and work haredning. Since they've never been fired there's been no excess pressure and since they've never expanded no work hardening will occur since, in essence, they've never been worked.

 

[bakert]

Not sizing new handgun brass ?? Starline recommends sizing new brass before use. Can't comment on rifle loads since I only reload for handguns but sizing before loading stops potential problems. With some new brass there's almost no bullet pull until sized.

 

[HSMITH]

I think we are getting somewhere. Glad you are sticking it out and trying to find the root cause of the problem.

Just remember, experience is what you have AFTER you screw something up......

 

[caz223]

Hmmmm.
I personally don't use like using lee dies, as they aren't as user-friendly, but I don't think make bad dies. On the contrary.
The EGW U series die is a lee part. Maybe EGW modifies it, maybe lee makes it to EGW's specs. Whichever is the case, it really doesn't matter. They are great dies.
I use the lee factory crimp die in 357SIG. Its harder on brass, but works better than anything else I've tried in that caliber.
Redding makes a competition seater die that is the solution to a large number of problems. I would certainly use it if it was made by lee. No question.
I don't like their powder through expanding dies, but I have a dillon so they are just an extra part, just like any other expanding die.
Lee is known for innovation and reasonable pricing. I personally am glad they are around. Even if you don't have any of their tooling, be thankful they are around, if they weren't, shooting would be limited to the people who could afford factory ammo or dillon super 1050s.