...shall not be infringed.

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baz

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It is common to see RKBA advocates say something like "What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand?" It is as if there is no line to be drawn over the ownership of firearms, that it is an absolute right, when there have long been limits on first amendment rights. I suspect the Supremes will have to deal with this question somehow in the Heller case.

I'm reading Clayton Cramer's Armed America and have been amazed to read of the number and variety of laws and regulations restricting the use of arms in colonial America. It has occurred to me that maybe that is where the line is to be drawn, i.e. over "use" versus "ownership." In other words, while the founding fathers might not have thought twice about regulations or laws restricting certain uses of firearms, that the right to "keep and bear" meant an absolute (but see the caveats below) right to own ("keep") and use ("bear") for certain purposes. The meaning of "infringement" then becomes a question of who has the right to "own/keep" firearms, and what legitimate purposes are encompassed by the term "bear/use." The type of firearm (handgun, assault weapon, full-auto, etc.) really isn't even relevant to the discussion as a reasonable basis of regulation, except to the question of how it relates to what legitimate purposes are encompassed by the term "bear/use."

So what restrictions on ownership are "reasonable" or somehow put someone outside the protections of the 2nd Amendment? Felons, children below a certain age, the mentally disturbed. Any others?

What uses are legitimate under the term "to bear arms." Self-defense, both individually and collectively (militias) for sure. But not hunting. There are numerous examples from colonial times of restrictions on hunting. The restrictions were on hunting, not the firearms.

Viewed this way, handguns, including semi-automatic pistols with high cap magazines, are well-suited to a legitimate RKBA use (self-defense) and any attempt to ban them is a per se "infringement". Similarly, assault style weapons, and even assault weapons themselves, are also well suited to a legitimate RKBA use (the ability to form a militia), and banning their ownership by anyone who has a right to keep/own firearms under the 2nd Amendment is an "infringement."

We need to refocus the debate over "reasonable restrictions" to ownership, not "use. There are no "reasonable" restrictions to a "legitimate" use. It might be "reasonable" to say that the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to a four year old. It is not "reasonable" to conclude that a) self-defense is not a legitimate use of a firearm, or that b) a handgun is not appropriate or well-suited as a self-defense weapon.

Let's not let the antis frame the terms of the debate over what's a reasonable restriction on types of firearms.
 
It is common to see RKBA advocates say something like "What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand?" It is as if there is no line to be drawn over the ownership of firearms, that it is an absolute right, when there have long been limits on first amendment rights.

Maybe that's because the 1st amendment doesn't include the words "shall not be infringed".

Your logic is flawed from the start.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

One could argue that "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech" as the same thing as "shall not be infringed". In that case, they've overstepped their bounds and we let them do it. So why should we let them do it with the 2nd? Again, the logic is flawed.
 
The thing is there is already laws about "who" can own a firearm. There are laws against children under a certain age, Criminals, mentally ill, etc. etc. I think the major thing that we should be fighting is that There is no need for more laws that do nothing but waste time and money for the taxpayers. What we need is for the laws that are in place to be enforced and for criminals to get stiffer punishment instead of letting criminals slide.
 
There is no such thing as "reasonable restrictions." Gun owners write letters and make phone calls to fight anti-gun legislation. This is like little Jimmy giving a power point presentation at his family meeting titled "Why Daddy Shouldn't Rape Me During Bathtime." Our human rights are not negotiable.
 
jlday70 hit it on the head. We already have laws in place outlawing every type of criminal activity involving firearms. The problem lies with the penal system where we continue to turn these career criminals back into society where they repeatedly commit crimes. It's so d--n logical that no-one in government can seem to get it. Simply enforce the laws on the books and you won't have to consider restricting firearms.
 
"Reasonable" restrictions.

It is clear that a right is not unlimited and is subject to reasonable restrictions. You don't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater.

The rub is that in the case of firearms there has been a long history of unreasonable restrictions to the point that they outnumber the reasonable ones by about 100 to 1. Registration is an excellent example. In and of itself it accomplishes nothing and would otherwise be a relatively harmless nuisance but for the fact that it invariably leads to confiscation. Hence registration is not a 'reasonable" restriction. Most firearms restrictions are in reality incremental prohibition.

The second rub is that most of these restrictions seem "reasonable" to the uninformed and hence they do not object to their implementation.

As a private individual, I cannot purchase a handgun in another state. Sounds reasonable to the uninformed, but it's a HUGE impediment to me if I happen across the key piece to complete a collection.
 
"As a private individual, I cannot purchase a handgun in another state."

Why not? I've done it. Lot's of people have done it.

Has anyone bothered to look up the various definitions of the word infringed?

How about "infringe - advance beyond the usual limit"

Oh look, it said usual limit. Not no limit, usual limit.

Dang, there goes that argument.

Now we have to start saying "Shall not be advanced beyond the usual limit." That's a mouthful.

John
 
Simply enforce the laws on the books and you won't have to consider restricting firearms

Well they sort of do that now, the problem is that the little buggers that make laws can't seem to help themselves from continuing to make more and more and more...
 
"Felon" is not a reasonable restriction. The term is too broad. Tax evaders, and similar others, should not lose their right to defend themselves with a firearm.
 
There is no such thing as "reasonable restrictions."

So you think it is of for a child molester/murder that jus got out of jail should be able to have a gun?:confused:

Interesting
 
Purchase?

As a private individual, I cannot PURCHASE a handgun in another state.

I can request it to be shipped to an FFL in my state and complete the transaction there, but I cannot purchase it in the state where I found it. Of course this incurrs shipping costs, local FFL's transfer fee, etc. A big hassle that should not be there. And the selling party may not want to go along with the hassle, especially if it's a private party. So it is a real wet blanket on out of state purchases. And all to no purpose other than getting the anti-gun camel's nose under the tent.
 
Well as horrible as it sounds, if the child molester was non-violent why should he lose his right to bear arms?

Because if you allow any crime to strip someone of a right not related to the crime (drunk driving, lose guns?) then they can lose all their rights. Why not restrict free speech for them?

And for that matter, if someone is convicted of inciting a riot, should they lose free speech? It was their speech that started the problem. Should a thief who kept stolen things in their house lose the right to unreasonable search and seizure or is it now reasonable to just barge in at any time?

Slippery slope defined!
 
It's no different than what you see happening in first grade classrooms all accross America.

Johny puts bubble gum in Jill's hair. Rather than punish Johny, the school bans bubble gum....effectively punishing all the kids who do good and obey the rules....because the principle/school board doesn't have the spine to punish the perp.

We have many, many laws that limit the "use" of firearms.....armed robbery, murder, assualt with a deadly weapon, etc....

but rather than punish the criminal, our broken society punishes everyone who does good and obeys the rules.

ya know,

I never saw a criminal who was executed for his crime become a repeat offender.
 
BobbyQuickdraw
molester/murder

Molester in my book= violent crime
and I wouldn't care if the murder used a ballpeen hammer fact is IMO violent felons should not be allowed to have a gun.

"the right to keep and bare arms" What about the right to life and as stated before
Our human rights are not negotiable
so a fitting punishment to me if not death would be restriction of firearms along with jail ect.

I have a hard time beleiving that some folks would welcome a known child molester as their armedneighbor!
 
Well your book is not the book of law, sad to say. Molestation is not classified as a violent crime. Rape, yes. Coerced sex? Not usually. Molestation? Non-violent.

But I'm playing devil's advocate here, though I believe the majority of nonviolent offenders shouldn't have their gun rights taken away - stuff like drunk driving, speeding, tax evasion, et al. Serious crimes like murder, assault, armed robbery, etc, I'm ok with taking their gun rights.
 
The term "reasonable" is a slimy way to institute gun bans. Just keep chipping away at the Second Amendment with "reasonable restrictions" is the plan of the anti-gun people. While everybody is pontificating the meaning of "reasonable" and making concessions here and there, anti-gun people get to enjoy the slow but steady usurping of gun freedoms.
 
Maybe that's because the 1st amendment doesn't include the words "shall not be infringed".

Your logic is flawed from the start.

That argument doesn't work either.

The First Amendment says "Congress shall make NO LAWS"....
The Second says "SHALL NOT be infringed"


They really do say the same thing but clearly BOTH amendments are violated by the Federal government every day.

FCC says you can't say certain things on television, that some people can't own both newspapers and television stations in the same market, that political speech can be restricted (McCain Feingold) etc. so the First is regularly violated, and so is the Second.

They clearly have no problem in violating either of these amendments but you can't say that the First is any more or less restrictive than the Second.

They are both pretty clear.

John Lott gave an interesting discussion of this very thing today on the G Gordon Liddy show.
 
Precisely

The term "reasonable" is a slimy way to institute gun bans. Just keep chipping away at the Second Amendment with "reasonable restrictions" is the plan of the anti-gun people. While everybody is pontificating the meaning of "reasonable" and making concessions here and there, anti-gun people get to enjoy the slow but steady usurping of gun freedoms.
 
Quite aside from the "shall make no law" versus the stronger "shall not be infringed"...

I feel most people think that the 1st ammendment has a lot more "reasonable restrictions" than it does. For example one CAN yell 'FIRE!' in a crowded theater. If one does so with the intent of causing havoc, and havoc is caused, then one has broken the law. But if there is a fire, or the yeller reasonably believes that there is, or it is a part of the stage production, or one sets up a demonstration with an audience who wants to hear him yell that, any of those would be protected. A better analogy would be that we DON'T put ball-gags into theater goers mouths lest they yell "FIRE!".

Another common example is that child porn is illegal. Courts have ruled that this is so only so long as the images in question are artifacts of a crime. In other words, one can legally make dirty drawings of it, disgusting and wrong as it is, and that is protected speech. And even with actual images, we don't regulate "high power" cameras to keep children from being harmed with them.
 
Why shouldn't former felons be allowed to own guns? If we can trust them enough to NOT be in prison any longer, then why can't we trust them with guns.

We've said it a million times ourselves, that if someone wants to hurt someone, they'll use anything at hand right? So what difference does it make if he can have guns or not? He'll hurt someone if he can't have a gun anyways. That's our own words...

It shouldn't be about guns. If the man can't be trusted with a gun after his prison term, then maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't let him out of prison.
 
If we can trust them enough to NOT be in prison any longer, then why can't we trust them with guns.
because some folks think that qualifies as infringement....after all you cant take a gun to jail right?..........what a joke!
 
dont understand what youre really saying eric...doesnt make sense to me.

(no really, it doesnt make sense to me :S)
 
And if you would have read the rest of my post, you would see that I did too.

I did read it, but, no offense, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Lott made it a lot more clear.
 
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