Sharps Rifle need some help guys...

[bigjim]

Hello all,

I have the bug and a pocket full of Money.

I am looking at one of those Pedersoli Quigley Sharps repros.

I want to go all out and get the nice sights and get set up to load for it.

Projected use:

Shooting on a 200 yard out door range off the bench about 20 to 50 shots per outing once or twice a month.

Questions:

1. On-line source? Best priceing? Experianced good service from...?

2. Setting up to load. I know Black powder is traditional. But can I go smokeless? Don't really want to screw around with Black powder mess.

3. Case size. I am leaning towards the 45/70 Gov specially wanting to shoot smokeless. But any good reason to go with the 45/90/100/110/120?

4. Bullets? Leaning towards one of the lead gas check bullets from Midway.
Any problems here?

I guess what I am hoping for here fellas some fun chat about this specialized kind of shooting. I don't want to have to reinvent the wheel when all of this has been done already and refined down to a science in the last century.

 

[mustanger98]

2. Setting up to load. I know Black powder is traditional. But can I go smokeless? Don't really want to screw around with Black powder mess.

Some guys at the range I use tell me they load about 20grs of 2400 under a 405gr LFP (gas checked). I've been advised for a target load not to crimp and leave the bullet seated a little long so when you load it it'll bite into the rifling. It's supposed to be more accurate that way. (You can't do that with a hunting load though.) Also, with that light charge of 2400 (which is good for a good distance- should do fine on that 200yd range) you'll need to use have a sheet of toilet paper to kinda take up some slack in the case and hold the charge back to the primer. You'll get more consistant pressures that way.

3. Case size. I am leaning towards the 45/70 Gov specially wanting to shoot smokeless. But any good reason to go with the 45/90/100/110/120?

.45/70's fine, but for a Quigley Sharps, .45/110 is more appropriate because that's what Tom Selleck had in the movie.

 

[iamkris]

I have a Pedersoli Billy Dixon model (imported by Cimmaron)...pretty close to what you're looking for. I opted for .45-70 because I already have a Trapdoor and wanted the flexibility. I'd also like to get a Marlin Guide Gun someday...another plus for a .45-70. Then again, I handload so there was no real reason not to go with another caliber...other than I feed 17 calibers right now.

I bought it from a guy I found through CAS (for a ridiculously low price...he was funding a Shiloh Sharps) so I really can't recommend an outlet for one. Stick with a Pedersoli if you're not going to plunk down the $ for a Shiloh or C Sharps.

Mine will shoot 1-1/8" groups all day long with my pet load, 38.5 gr IMR 3031 under a 405 gr Meister Hard Cast LNFP. I have a downloaded charge for ,y Trapdoor at 35 gr of 3031. I have some pretty punishing loads -- even in this 11 lb gun -- but they aren't quite this accurate.

I've been working on blackpowder loads but I haven't found one that is accurate yet. Stuff the silly thing full of blackpowder through a drop tube and ram in the bullet...hard roll crimp.

The full power blackpowder loads are pussycats but the smokeless ones can whump you at the top end. If all I was going to shoot was blackpowder, I'd opt for the 45-90 or -110. The 45-70 is more versatile otherwise.

 

[bigjim]

Thanks guys this is great stuff. Anybody else want to chime in?

 

[Catbird]

I have a Pedersoli Quigley-style Sharps rifle. It has a 34" octagonal barrel chambered in 45-70 and double set triggers. I've had it a few years; I believe I ordered it from Cabela's for around $900 (more or less). I shoot my own personal reloads, exclusively consisting of a 405 grain Oregon Trail/Laser Cast hardcast lead flatnose bullet with 38.5 grains of IMR-3031 powder. I installed a Lyman globe front sight with several inserts and a matching rear peep sight similar to what Quigley used in the movie. This gun is darned accurate! Once the main trigger is set, all I have to do is barely touch it with my fingerprint and BOOM!

 

[Bruce H]

I have a Pedersoli replica with a 32 inch tube. Bought a better venier sight and went to work. I really like a 475gr. Lyman gas check. Load XMR 5744. These things are too much fun and habit forming. I also use Starline brass.

 

[MrMurphy]

If you want to shoot from anything but prone, bags, sitting, etc, get one of the shorter barrels. I shot a Shiloh 34" barrel in .45-70 and it was sweet, but heavy!


Unless you've really really got an itch for one of the more classic rounds, the -70 is far easier to find. And it's also historically accurate for the period (Springfield Trapdoors used it). There's also mounds of reloading info for the .45-70 in all power levels.

 

[moredes]

Cimmaron has an excellent rep, as does Cabela's. The Pedersoli's are very nice, but nothing next to the CSharps or Shiloh for balance; the 34" Pedersolis are amazingly 'noseheavy' compared to the CSharps or Shiloh. At least, that is my experience from handling all three at a gunstore. Wood choice is probably just a hair less elegant, too, but for function, (read 'accuracy') I haven't seen a lot of data touting the highline guns over the Pedersoli.

In a couple of threads over at SASS, the 'favorite' smokeless load was IMR 3031 loaded between 36-40.5 gr. pushing a 405 gr lead bullet. That's not to say this is the overwhelming choice. I kept an eye on the thread for a long time and found 3031 was recommended ~30% of the time, with H4198(? as I recall) a very close second, and several others in "honorable mention" with mutiple devotees for each powder preference. I "liked" what I read only because I have a few cans of 3031, and that advice/recommendation accomodated my current stocks. The votes were certainly not "convincing"--something like 3031/6, H4198/4, IMR 4198/3, 5744/3, 2400/1. Those who favored 3031 reported best accuracy in the 38-40 gr. range.

45-70 is the only round you'll be able to find at the "general store". 90/100/110/120 all require that the shooter reload, though for long range, these casings provide more options. However, if you go smokeless, you'll never be able to fill the 45-70's case with powder, and by extension, accuracy in the even larger cases will suffer.

Bullets for your application--I have no personal experience with them, but a friend has been getting some very good 100yd results with 300gr jacketeds- he's still using a variety of loads not having yet settled on a pet reload, but he's consistent with .6-1.3" with his combination of 300gr jacketed/smokeless powder/Pedersoli 34" 1874. He's restricted to 100yd, but I don't see how 200yd could hurt a 300gr bullet reload, (especially if Midsouth has another fire sale on that bullet- as I recall it was about $160/2500). I like the 405 lead, but I also intend the load for up to 500yd.

I would not recommend using a buffer to fill the case on these rounds; there are "reports" of this procedure causing chamber/barrel ringing. I use corn meal as a buffer in 45-70, but only in rounds intended for my BFR handgun. (I haven't seen any ringing there, but I've only fired ~20-30 buffered rounds through it, and there's a gap between the cylinder and barrel anyway. I'll probably discontinue the practice of buffering when these loads are shot up just to be safe and treat my guns well.)

Also, just in case you're thinking about it, the 45-70 will fit in the larger chambers (45-90/110/120), but the consensus opinion is nothing good can come of it. Ringing is quite possible, and poor accuracy has been proven. (I've had a Pedersoli rep tell me that I could have the best of both worlds with a 45-120, shooting buffered smokeless 70's for short range if I preferred- hey, he's a salesman, and knew what I wanted to hear by the question I'd posed. But when pressed for a guarantee that I wouldn't ring the chamber with that practice, he stopped answering emails. Several more experienced shooters at SASS have advised me not to do it.)

 

[bigjim]

Thanks guys! Wow, Moredes great info.

I think you post in oonjunction with what I have read tells me to go for the 45/70. To bad, those 45/120 cases sure are nice looking.

Does nybody know if there is a removable sight set up like in the movie? If so does it return to Zero?

I have treid "removeable sights" before and have always been VERY sad at the results.

 

[Jonathan]

I shoot a highwall repro in 45-70.


The "mess" associated with the blackpowder is really variable. I had a hell of a time with fouling (Swiss powder) until I switched to a different detergent for cleaning. Once that was done, cleaning was literally easier than some of my modern smokeless bolt-actions. Using a blow tube also seemed to make the fouling that was present much less of a problem.


You also have the option of going to a blackpowder replacement, like Triple7. I haven't personally tried it, so I can't comment on the results.


I would highly recommend the 45-70 above the other choices you've given for a few reasons. First, it can easily be a smokeless round. It's available off-the-shelf, and there are tons of loading data around. And while a 45-70 can be reamed out to a 45-110 etc, it's not possible to go the other way without cutting down your barrel. Depending on your profile, that might not even be an option.


Your bullet choice is going to depend highly upon your cartridge and powder choices.


I use a "removable" sight from Montana Vintage Arms. This is the shorter version of the one I use; it would be appropriate for 200 yards:


I don't think you'll find a nicer option for removable sights. They do work, and they do repeat.

I think you're really limiting yourself by only using it at 200 yards, though. Their envelope extends well beyond that. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91957

 

[Jim Watson]

Do not buy an Eyetalian Sharps repro made by anybody but Pedersoli. The style and importer are not important to quality, the actual maker is; and Pedersoli is the only import I have seen in serious BPCR competition. Shiloh and C. Sharps are much nicer but are much more expensive.

The Quigley movie style rifle with 34" barrel and military stock will both balance poorly and kick. Sharps didn't bring out the Creedmoor pattern rifles for nothing.

Get the best sights you can possibly manage. The importers do not put the best sights on the rifles so as to keep the price down. There is a $350 set of Pedersoli sights with Soule windage that are ok, but it is not hard to drop $500+ on a set of sights. My silhouette score jumped from AA to AAA the first time out with a set of Baldwin sights to replace the Shaver-tuned Italian rear and Lyman front, and NO other change in gun, gear, or ammo. $570.

.45-70 is a gracious plenty if you are going to shoot mostly smokeless. A good modern made Sharps is safe with loads listed for Ruger No 1. It is fine with black to at least 800 yards and will do at 1000 if loaded right.

You do not need a gas check bullet unless you plan to considerably exceed black powder velocities. Box bullets are variable in quality and you have no capability to adjust things. My .38-55 shoots Meisters and Laser Cast pretty well at 100 yards but I would never consider taking them to a match like I shot Saturday and Sunday at 200, 300, 600 yards. I cast my own and inspect them minutely, and still get an occasional uncalled shot. But I have only been doing it a year and a half and still have a lot to learn.

If you load black powder like Iamkris describes
"I've been working on blackpowder loads but I haven't found one that is accurate yet. Stuff the silly thing full of blackpowder through a drop tube and ram in the bullet...hard roll crimp."
you will not likely have better results and will go back to nitro.
Black powder loading is a rather involved process and you cannot get away with the products and procedures that work with smokeless loads shot at short range. If you put in the work, though, black will be MORE accurate than smokeless at ranges where uniform ballistics count. A good black powder load will have single digit standard deviation in velocity. A real good black powder load will have single digit extreme spread. This really counts when the velocity is rather low and the ranges long.

 

[MrMurphy]

Lyman and Marble both make tang sights that fold down or are removable and both were "in business" back when these rifles were top of the line modern hunting tools (the 1870s).. so, both make sights that are quality and work.

Williams I think makes them too.

www.brownells.com for all of them.

 

[Onmilo]

.45-70 is a far better cartridge case if you intend to load mainly smokeless powder.
The 45-90 and 45-110 catrtridge cases are simply too long to be effectively used with smokeless propellants and you can safely duplicate 45-90 and 45-110 blackpowder ballistics with current smokeless powders when used in the 45-70 cartridge case.
If you are going to load only black powder or black powder substitute loads then the 45-90 case is the best compromise.
Perdersoli produces some really fine weapons that consistantly win medals at international sport shoots.
Their quality is not in question and there are worse things you could spend your money on.

 

[Gewehr98]

If that Sharps/Pedersoli replica is anything like my Rolling Block Creedmoor...

It'll just plain love black powder loads, especially in .45-70. I run BP loads in both my Rolling Block and Ruger #1S, and they've become my favorite target ammo. I cheat just a smidgen, by sneaking 5 grains of WW231 or WST into the case before I drop-tube the main charge of Goex FFg into the case. I use an old aluminum ski pole with a laboratory beaker clamp affixed to my reloading bench, slowly pouring the FFg all the way down into the case. When done, I can invert the case and the black powder won't fall out, it's settled so nicely. I seat an OxYoke Wonder Wad on top of the powder column, then a 450gr swaged lead bullet, lubed with Crisco. I've been rewarded with the big cloud of smoke after each shot, the smell of black powder and Crisco (reminds me of a Chinese kitchen) with those big honking bullets punching holes in the paper, often producing nice little cloverleafs. Powder fouling is virtually non-existant, thanks to the duplex load. Recoil is a big gentle push, easily manageable in both the Rolling Block Creedmoor and Ruger #1S. See the bullet on the right, in front of the can of kitchen-grade bullet lube? The Sharps should like bullets of that configuration, and the heavier ones with the spitzer noses. Get a copy of the SPG Lubricants Black Powder Reloading Primer, it's very useful for the black powder cartridge shooter, and is an interesting read in it's own right.



Here's my 5'2" wife shooting the black powder load in my Ruger #1S, a big grin on her face as she rides out the recoil, the smoke wafting back towards her:

 

[Cortland]

As far as I'm concerned the "real" Sharps are the paper cartridge variety. I have a 70s-vintage Garret Arms model. They're a pain to load for, but as authentic as it gets. In case you're curious (and even if you're not), this the loading procedure:

Find some onion skin (air mail paper). In these days of e-mail and computers this can be a chore and in of itself.

Order some potassium nitrate. This can be acquired from a fireworks supply house.

Dissolve as much potassium nitrate as you can in lukewarm tap water. Soak the onion skin, along with some cotton string, in the solution for a few minutes, then hang the paper up to dry. I've heard it recommended that you desolve the KNO3 in very hot or boiling water. In my experience this just creates mess as the KNO3 precipitates out as the water cools, leaving the paper a crusty salty mess. Your onion skin is now nitrated paper. Set a match to it and it should go up in a flash.

You'll have to cast your own bullets of course, pure lead. The trick with casting pure lead is HEAT, set that pot as high as it'll go. To prevent rapid dross formation at these high temperature, occasionally sprinkle boric acid powder onto the top of your furnance. At high temperatures, this forms a layer of glass on top of the lead, preventing the oxidation that leads to dross formation. I use a Rapine bullet mold.

Now, to create the paper cartridges you'll need to cut your nitrated paper into strips, and then glue them into .56" or .54" or .45" diameter cylinders. You need a glue that will readily burn without leaving nasty residues in the bore and chamber -- sodium silicate. Once you have a collection of these glued cylinders of nitrated paper, you can insert your cast & lubed bullets into the cylinder. I like to have the paper covering the lube grooves. Paper cartridge Sharps bullets have a ring tail on them (looks like a rebated rim on a brass cartridge case). Using your nitrated cotton string, you can then fasten the paper cylinder to the bullet via the ring tail. Now fill the paper cylinder with the correct amount of BP. The cartridge can be sealed in number of ways. Twisting or folding (using sodium silicate to secure the fold) the paper cartridge is the easiest way, but then the back of the cartridge is sheared off when the breach is closed. Not a big deal, but kinda messy with the BP going everywhere. You can also seal the paper cartridge by folding the end in on itself (like a roll of coins), and then gluing with sodium silicate.

Can't you see yourself whipping up 50 of these puppies a week? And to think in the 19th century you could probably pay a factory full of orphans two bowls of gruel a day to this for you. It's enough to make a fellow kind of nostalgic, isn't it?

I also have a Perdersoli in .45-70. I shoot that a lot more.

 

[BigG]

Elmer Keith went to great lengths to explain the loading and firing of the old Buffalo Sharps paper patched bullets. The rifling style was designed for a bullet the could be pushed thru the barrel, in other words it rode atop the lands. That's where the paper patch came in. The patch is what the rifling cut and it would strip off the bullet a few feet from the muzzle. Keith said they were some of the most accurate rifles he ever shot. And he shot quite a few.

 

[iamkris]

Per Jim Watson, maybe I was a bit rash in saying

I've been working on blackpowder loads but I haven't found one that is accurate yet. Stuff the silly thing full of blackpowder through a drop tube and ram in the bullet...hard roll crimp.

I actually take quite a bit of care in loading. Consistent case prep, priming, same volumetric hand measured powder charge, 24" drop tube, 0.030" fiber wad, separate seating and hard roll crimp, commercially cast bullets with SPG.

That said, I haven't found the magic accuracy bean yet with BP. I'd like to buy the SPG BP Primer to see what I'm doing wrong.

 

[TooTaxed]

For a source, check out Dixie Gun Works of Union City, Tennessee. one of their catalogs is well worth having! I've ordered a lot of black powder supplies from them over the years, and their retail store is as much as a museum as retail. Lots of reenactor stuff and ML cannon, too.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com

And, I suppose you've considered Pyrodex in lieu of black powder...smokeless and clean. I use it in my ML revolvers and rifles, and have never experienced a problem.

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, I am pretty new at this myself, only a year and a half into BPCR and that not my main activity, but I have been reading, watching, and listening to the good shooters.

Very few use volumetric charges and those that do are loading out of Harrell benchrest measures or others as precise and with better technique than I can manage. Most of us do a rough measure and trickle to exact charge weight.

Drop tube and card wad are standard.

Goex powder usually does best with hard compression, I have read of up to .350". Done in a separate compression die, NOT by mashing a soft bullet in the seating die. Swiss needs less compression, the first I bought shot well with .135" compression. I am compressing my present lot number only by the thickness of the wad or a little more depending on how much the powder settles out of the drop tube. I still use a compression die and seat my 20:1 lead:tin bullets gently.

I don't know anybody shooting a single shot with hard roll crimped cases. The choice is normally between light crimp and no crimp. I don't even try to get the flare out of the case mouth, it helps center the cartridge in the chamber which is important in my rifle which was rebored from .32 to .38 with a long chamber throat. Some people don't even resize the brass, or only size it lightly; slip-fitting a bullet by hand, no seating die needed. A lot of these guys do use a light crimp, though.

Commercial cast bullets are poor to fair. I have done ok with Meisters with SPG and Laser Cast with green wax (smokeless only), but the Buffalo Arms house brand was so bad I am melting those down, and would melt the Liberty bullets I have except they are hard anitmony alloy, which very, very few people use with black powder.
Best to cast your own out of foundry lead-tin alloy, sort out the duds by inspection and weight, and pan lube with SPG or equivalent.

The SPG primer has some good information, but is really a bit dated. It calls for .050" powder compression and magnum primers, for example.
Most Goex shooters now use much more compression, as above.
Many, if not most people are loading with standard primers or even pistol primers, some are putting a newsprint wad in the bottom of the case over the flash hole to diffuse the primer flame.
Mike Venturino's book 'Shooting the Buffalo Rifles' is informative, too.
And you can learn a lot at
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/
even if you shoot another brand.

Edit to add:
Pyrodex, eww. There are so few shooters using Pyrodex successfully in BPCR competition that they are considered kind of weird. Pyrodex is not enough cleaner than black to matter, is more corrosive, and generates a dirty smelly brown smoke instead of the normal crisp gray cloud with its refreshing hint of sulfur
Other fakes are not allowed.
NRA Long Range still allows duplex loading with a little nitro under the black but that is a declining habit.

 

[Catbird]

It seems as though this thread has taken a different direction (handloading)...I hope that the mods will allow me the latitude to ask a quick question:

Does anyone here or anyone you shoot with utilize plated bullets in their .45/70 Sharps? I realize that they're not very traditional, but I am still curious.

 

[iamkris]

Jim Watson

HA! Seems like I'm doing everything wrong!

I volumetric load...I though weight measuring was a no-no in BP. I compress with the bullet. 0.125" so obviously not enough. I use magnum primers. I hard roll crimp. I full length resize.

Dang, the only thing I'm doing right is using Goex, Meister bullets and SPG. Other than that, it's amazing I don't blow myself up I have Mike V's book...read it in detail but still am apparently a heathen when it comes to BP loading.

Oh well, this is more complex than I thought it would be.

 

[Jim Watson]

Kris,

I don't know it all, but I know what works for me and what works for the people I shoot with. If you are not getting good accuracy, you need to make some changes.

I shot my first BPCR mid-range match last weekend - it had been all silhouette before that - and was satisified with a 79 at 600 yards on Saturday and tickled pink with an 86 on Sunday. That stuff is HARD. Shooting 200 and 300 yards prone over sticks is not as tough, IF the gun and ammo are up to it. Position shooting with a heavy rifle not really balanced for the job is more demanding.

Silhouette is harder in some ways. The targets are irregular and you get either a hit or a miss. A bullseye is easier to aim at and if you pull one off the ten ring you still get a few points.