Shenandoah N.P. - I can carry, correct?

[wbwanzer]

I live in the People's Republic of Maryland, but I have a Utah Non-resident concealed carry permit which is recognized by Virginia. So this weekend we're going to the Skyline Drive in Virginia and staying at the Big Meadows Lodge. I should be able to carry concealed while in the park and in the buildings unless there are signs that state otherwise, correct? I've had this permit for two years now and have never carried yet. So this will be a 'first' for me. I guess I'm overly concerned about doing the 'right' thing and not breaking the law.

Thanks.

 

[Sam1911]

If in a National Park, you have to follow the laws of the state in which you're standing.

However, buildings on the park lands where employees work are off-limits.

 

[wbwanzer]

So I can carry for the short time I'm out of the car possibly taking a walk or if we take a short hike. Probably not worth it.

 

[Sam1911]

You can carry in your car, and on hikes as well as in places like restroom huts and such. Just not in the main park buildings.

Worth it? I carry on all hikes and drives...

 

[basicblur]

Lots of gray areas here-you should be OK while in the open, but I don't know if all these have been shaken out yet:
1. AFAIK (been a while), Big Meadows is government owned, but operation is farmed out to a 3rd party-since the 3rd party are not government employees, don't know how that affects CC.
2. I've read of some trying to claim open air sheds/coverings are "buildings"-don't know how that would affect CC. I think it was Wolftrap? that was trying to claim the amphitheatre (the audience is completely out in the open) was a building etc.
3. Everything I read keeps claiming areas off limts should be marked, buy ya never know?

You might want to download the VA AG letter regarding carrying in parks and carry it with you? Here's a page with 'bout 4 PDFs on the issue:
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=014966...&q=Firearms#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=Firearms in parks
Also check out http://www.nps.gov/shen/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm
Got this link from a recent WVCDL newsletter:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...s-will-open-gates-to-holders-of-conce/?page=2
Note this little blurb in the story:
However, he said, Virginia law prohibits firearms at sites that are holding educational programs for children, such as at Wolftrap during children’s theater events. Hotels, bookstores and other concessions in parks not operated by Park Service employees will follow local rules.

Note the highlighted text-makes it sound like CC in Big Meadows Lodge would be OK if it's still operated by a 3rd party, but not the visitors center, which on my last visit was operated by park rangers.

Might not be a bad idea to call Big Meadows Lodge and ask:
1. Are you operated by a 3rd party, and if so, who (used to be Aramark)?
http://www.visitshenandoah.com/accommodations/big-meadows-lodge.aspx
2. What are the laws regarding CC in the lodge?

From Aramark's employment site:
ARAMARK Sports & Entertainment services, Inc. is the licensed concessioner in Shenandoah National Park. Our company operates lodging, dining facilities, craft shops and stables throughout the park. Our season varies from location to location, but most facilities are open from March/April to November.

Our lodging units in the park are Skyland Resort at (mile 41.7) with 178 rooms, Big Meadows Lodge (mile 51.2) with 97 rooms, and Lewis Mountain Cabins (mile 57.5) with 10 cabin rooms. Loft Mountain Wayside (mile 79.5), Big Meadows Wayside, (mile 51.2) and Elkwallow Wayside, (mile 24.1) have campstores, gift shops, dining areas and gas stations.

 

[wbwanzer]

Thanks guys.

My wife made the reservation, but I believe that Big Meadows is still run by Aramark (3rd party). So I guess I'll give it a try.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I should be able to carry concealed while in the park and in the buildings unless there are signs that state otherwise, correct?

Correct. You can also open carry.


Here is the applicable statute with the important parts quoted:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html

§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

 

[wbwanzer]

By the way, I'm going to take my S&W 3913 for my first forey into 'carrying'. I think it's the perfect size carry gun. I'm not a huge guy.

 

[basicblur]

I was going to try and be helpful here, but the more I dig, the more confused I get, so let that be a warning? I don't think I would OC?

If in a National Park, you have to follow the laws of the state in which you're standing.

Correct. You can also open carry.

OC is legal in VA, but there were a few quirks in VA law regarding OC in state parks, national forests, etc. Even though OC was legal, you had to CC in 'em if memory serves, but I knew this was being worked on, and since the NP you're visiting will be under VA state laws?

I dug up this from an earlier VCDL e-mail:
7/16/11
To celebrate the Governor McDonnell's directive earlier this year to allow both open and concealed carry in State Parks, VCDL is having a picnic on Saturday, August 6, at the Pocahontas State Park in Chesterfield County from 11 AM to 2 PM.
So it looks like we have a 'directive', but I'm having a hard time finding something concrete-based on how recent the directive above is, some sites I visited are confusing (haven't been updated?).

Here's a link that might be helpful (or confusing)?
http://www.vcdl.org/static/ccw.html
At the bottom of the page, note points 3 and 5:
- National Forests: OC prohibited except where hunting is allowed (4VAC15-40-60)
- State Parks: OC prohibited except where hunting is allowed (4VAC5-30-200)

I assume the second point above has been changed according to the 'directive' from the VA governor, but so far all the sites I visit seem to reflect the old? interpretation?
If the NP is under state laws, does the VA OC law regarding state parks or national forests apply to the Skyline Drive?

Since the directive is recent, and I'm having trouble finding verifiable info online, I think I might just stick to CC.

Besides-no need to scare the natives?

 

[basicblur]

as well as in places like restroom huts and such

I remember this point being brought up earlier-still confusing?
Folks (officials?) were arguing over whether cleaning restrooms was part of normal park duties, and then you have to determine who is performing said duties-park employees or 3rd parties?

I think I'd look for the signs banning carry-if you have to use a restroom etc, maybe use the stall and keep the gun hidden.

 

[NavyLCDR]

OC is legal in VA, but there were a few quirks in VA law regarding OC in state parks, national forests, etc. Even though OC was legal, you had to CC in 'em if memory serves, but I knew this was being worked on, and since the NP you're visiting will be under VA state laws?

A state park is a STATE park. A national forest is a national FOREST. Neither of those areas is related to a National Park. Whatever method of carrying a firearm standing outside the gate of the National Park on plain 'ole unincorporated land in a state remains legal inside the gate of the National Park.

It's not legal to carry a firearm in a building that is owned or leased by the Federal government where Federal employees are present during the performance of their duties outside the National Park, nor inside the National Park.

It's not legal to store or carry a firearm on US Post Office property, neither outside nor inside a National Park.

Laws/rules/regulations applicable to state parks and national forests in a state are NOT applicable to a national park, because a national park is neither a state park nor a national forest.

 

[wbwanzer]

Thanks again everyone. When I carry, it will be concealed. I will be on the lookout for signs prohibiting firearms and will be mindfull of where I am and what type of employees are present.

 

[basicblur]

Well NavyLCDR's caps aside (at ease ), here's more to confuse the issue?
http://www.vcdl.org/letters/NPS_Firearms.pdf
(listed under VCDLs letters section)

It's a Lake Meade Firearms Fact Sheet, but I assume it covers all NP areas, of which Lake Meade is one. Note the first question at the top of column 2:
Can I carry a firearm in plain view?
No. Regulations concerning firearms in national park areas only allow concealed carry of firearms by those with a state issued concealed carry permit, except as may be permitted under hunting regulations.

So I guess it boils down to just a couple of points:
1. Do you want to take a chance OCing, or arguing the finer points of (updated?) law/semantics with a park ranger/employee, etc, or would you prefer to KISS and just CC?
2. Iff'n you're hassled for OCing, just refer 'em to NavyLCDR!

 

[basicblur]

I will be on the lookout for signs prohibiting firearms and will be mindfull of where I am and what type of employees are present.

Signs 'should' cover you (but you better make sure they're not hidden), but I'd still be leery.
Fer example-at Skyland (just up the road from Big Meadows), the restaurant/gift shop building is probably run by Aramark, but I wouldn't bet against there being some small park ranger office tucked away in the building. Just because you don't see him, doesn't mean they don't have an office inside, and then we're back into the finer points of the law/somebody's interpretation?

BTW-have you been in the area before or is this your first time staying?

 

[22-rimfire]

Basically as I understand things, you may carry concealed if you have a carry permit that is honored in VA. Concealed carry is legal in both State Parks and National Forests. It is not legal in Federal facilities where Federal employees regularly work inside the park. You may not carry inside a visitor center or nature center.

 

[wbwanzer]

basicblur Yes, I have been in that area many times before, but not since I've had my Utah permit.

Just so everyone is clear, I plan to carry concealed as I mentioned in my original post (#1). So I wouldn't get too concerned about the ability to OC in National Parks for my benefit.

 

[basicblur]

Basically as I understand things, you may carry concealed if you have a carry permit that is honored in VA. Concealed carry is legal in both State Parks and National Forests.

Correct-the rub comes when he was told he could also OC.
Maybe he can, maybe he can't-as much confusion as there is on the OC issue, how many different answers are you going to get from how many different rangers (they're probably confused also).

Back when carrying in NPs was being batted around, all I heard was the laws of the state in which you reside will apply to the laws in which the NP is located.

OK, but what VA laws regarding OC are we talking about when it comes to the NP in VA?
1. OC laws when out and about in the general public (legal)
2. OC laws in VA state parks (not legal until recently?, based only on the governor's directive in the VCDL e-mail?)
3. OC laws in VA national forests?

When I click on VA legal links, all of 'em seem to go against the recent governor's directive, and so far, I can find nothing 'bout the governor's directive (just haven't been updated?) except the blurb in the VCDL e-mail.

Now I'm sure the guys at VCDL did their research before holding a picnic to celebrate the governor's directive, but I can't find anything to print/show a misinformed? park ranger, etc.

Update: Did find this:
Posted at 3:50 PM ET, 01/19/2011
McDonnell quietly issues directive allowing open carry of firearms in state parks
If you read the article, he issued a directive concerning state parks, but the issue in national forests is still going through the system (but this story is from January 2011).

 

[basicblur]

Just so everyone is clear, I plan to carry concealed as I mentioned in my original post (#1). So I wouldn't get too concerned about the ability to OC in National Parks for my benefit.

That would be the smart, simple thing to do.

Enjoy your trip!
(we'll still be arguing the finer points 'til you get back!)

 

[wbwanzer]

Enjoy your trip!
(we'll still be arguing the finer points 'til you get back!)

Glad I could start a stimulating topic for you guys.

 

[essayons21]

I was up there earlier this year. All of the federal buildings covered by the statute as places that federal employees work are clearly marked. Very clearly marked. Even the little single person booths at some of the park entrances.

Big Meadows Lodge is operated by Aramark, and staffed by Aramark employees. As of this summer there were no postings prohibiting carry in the Lodge or in any of the outbuildings. Same with the Wayside.

I carried the entire time I was up there with no issues. Stay out of the visitors center and you will stay legal.

 

[basicblur]

Glad I could start a stimulating topic for you guys.

At's right...start a food fight, then go on vacation! :banghead: