Shipment of 100,000 AK-47s to Venezuela... U.S. is upset.

[Waitone]

The situation in Venezuela has bad mojo written all over it. He's turning it into a marxist paradise with the help of Fidel. Emptying the cities and send the refugees into the land which was previously confiscated from private owners.

His model government is North Korea. Combine our dependence on Venezuela oil (11% of US imports http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html ) with his inevitable alliance with islamofascist terrormongers and you've got an explosive mix. I fully expect to see the US to implement a regime change. Then again when Fidel croaks all bets are officially off.

 

[spartacus2002]

Maybe .gov should focus more on stuff in our backyard, instead of bringing Jeffersonian democracy to Iraq....

 

[Stand_Watie]

Unless Bush is stupider than I think, he knows that 100k new ak 47's from Russia won't make any difference one way or the other in Venezuala - even 100k used rifles in the hands of Chavez's militias is a drop in the bucket compared to the larger picture of them being given the go ahead by their government to intimidate political opposition.

Bush is trying to undermine Chavez politically. Whether or not it will be successful is anybody's guess.

 

[Malice]

Quote:
Only problem is that Chavez is apparently popular, winning 57% of the votes in a recall election.


How is this a problem?


Quote:
If oil producing countries begin accepting the euro instead of dollars, we will suffer. That is sufficient reason for military action IMO, until we can develop Anwar and other oil rich sites.


The idea that some people here believe that an entire nation's soverignty should depend on how their continued soverignty will affect the economy of The Greatest Nation on the Face of the Planet make sme sick

But, we're not imperialist, right? Right?

 

[PATH]

Remember the Monroe Doctrine? I am sure Mr. Chavez will take care to remember it as well.

 

[carebear]

Under Monroe, wouldn't it be Russia that needs to worry?

Venezuela would do well to treat any remaining US Fruit plants with extreme care...

 

[Art Eatman]

Malice, it's a two-fold problem. First, if 57% of the people believe that Chavez' ideas of socialism are good, it means that their economy will go even further down the tubes than it has from his efforts so far. This worsens the living conditions.

Second, the connection with Cuba indicates a willingness to "export the revolution" into neighboring countries. (Support of Noriega in Nicaragua; support of FARC.) This does not at all help the general population of those countries. It leads to political instability, followed by a lot of killing and a lot of shortages of such things as food and medicine.

Regrdless of any perceived wrongness or ham-handness in US policy, the basic goal is political stability. Even with a less than desirable administration in any foreign country, stability offers some hope for improvement through influence and negotiation. Instability invariably creates pain and suffering and dead bodies.

Art

 

[Waitone]

Let us not make the assumption the election was on the up and up. We're talking a marxist here. What makes anyone assume he intends on playing by the rules right up until he flips the switch and turns on his marxist paradise.

Another factoid. The company manufacturing and distributing the voting machines is something like 1/3 owned by the government. Up here we call that a conflict of interest.

Jimmuh Carter did his usual semi-kestered job in certifying elections. . . .something for which he has no qualifications. Carter screwed this one up so I encourage the esteemed forum to NOT assume the election was honest. To the contrary the election was rife with corruption with which Jimuh had no problem.

 

[Cacique500]

It's a beautiful country but I was never comfortable travelling there. We never left the grounds of our hotel and there were armed guards everywhere. Especially nerve wracking was our trip in a Cessna to south western Venezuela, about 20 miles from the Columbian border. Eek! Was actually happy to be back in Caracas after that trip.

I asked my boss at the time if our company would pay any ransom...he just chuckled and said don't ask.

On the other hand, there are some really beautiful islands off the coast of VZ that are worth a visit and not as crazy as the mainland.

 

[Glock Glockler]

To hell with Iran, this this is a place we should invade if we go down that route. Ideally we'd fund an anti-Chavez movement there and just throw gasoline on the fire. Bullocks to what Carter says, it's the people that count the votes that's important, we have no idea what funny business went on behind closed doors.

The simple fact is that this guy's a thorn in our side and he's starting to become a threat, we need him taken out.

 

[Sparks]

Nice to see that national soverignity means so much these days.

 

[Glock Glockler]

What about National security? Peronsally, I value my nation's security more than I value their nation's soverignty.

 

[Sparks]

Which is precisely the same principle which drives Sarah Brady, no doubt.

 

[outofbattery]

100K AK's would be quite handy for his FARC buddies next door in Colombia .

 

[Sparks]

100K AK's would be quite handy for his FARC buddies next door in Colombia .

What was that sentence about the Assault Weapons Ban that had many people so annoyed? Something like "hunters don't need AK-47s but criminals and terrorists do"? And there was lots of talk about how terrorists rarely get their firearms through legitimate channels and so on and so forth; and now all that is left fall by the wayside because it's not the US being discussed?
Seems a bit, well, inconsistent is the polite word...

 

[carebear]

Does Venezuela have a "keep and bear arms" clause in their Conny? Are these weapons intended for the true "man in the street" or some kind of anti-freedom paramilitary organization.

The inconsistency is probably attributable to the intent of the weapons and the fact that they are a government purchase vice for civilian.

Good point though.

 

[Art Eatman]

"What was that sentence about the Assault Weapons Ban that had many people so annoyed? Something like "hunters don't need AK-47s but criminals and terrorists do"? And there was lots of talk about how terrorists rarely get their firearms through legitimate channels and so on and so forth; and now all that is left fall by the wayside because it's not the US being discussed?"

Sparks, while carebear made a good point, I'd add that I really, really doubt these are defensive weapons to repel an invasion from Guyana, Brazil or Colombia.

We're talking about the highly probable development of a full-bore socialist police state, given Chavez' political history and recent commentaries. The creation of severe political unrest.

Thanks for the red herring. I was feeling a mite peckish...

Art

 

[Sparks]

The inconsistency is probably attributable to the intent of the weapons and the fact that they are a government purchase vice for civilian.

Well, if you're implying that government purchases of arms can't be trusted, you're rather making the point that your government can't be trusted to buy arms from a commercial company either (lest they give them to a south american terrorist group such as, say, the Contras) and that would have rather negative effects on your armed forces, no?

Basicly, stepping into another nation's soverignity is like stepping on a can of worms - apply pressure and there's a popping noise and you're suddenly up to your ass in wriggly things...

 

[carebear]

Well, if you're implying that government purchases of arms can't be trusted, you're rather making the point that your government can't be trusted to buy arms from a commercial company either

Only if you subscribe to the idea that all governments are morally identical.

Poor particular incidents in the past notwithstanding, I'm sure you would grant the US or UK a certain higher moral standing than any Marxist-based regime. If only due to internal systemic controls and the ability to learn from mistakes.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Thomas Jefferson: first inaugural address, delivered on March 4, 1801:

it is proper that you should understand what I deem the essential principles of our government, and consequently those which ought to shape its administration. I will compress them within the narrowest compass they will bear, stating the general principle, but not all its limitations. Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none;

There you have it.

 

[Bruce H]

It is none of our business. If for any reason it becomes our business, an attack on the United States for instance then we make it our business. Otherwise set down and shut up.

 

[Sparks]

Poor particular incidents in the past notwithstanding, I'm sure you would grant the US or UK a certain higher moral standing than any Marxist-based regime.

Well, I'd prefer to think that I granted moral standing on the basis of prior example, rather than a theoretical basis for ideology - for example, I'd rank China's human rights record as more damning than their economic policies. Also, don't forget that "poor particular incidents in the past" is a rather spartan summary for Chile, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, and the suspected involvment in Venezuela recently, amongst other things. So you can well imagine that Chavez or indeed anyone in Venezuela wouldn't feel particularly hypocritical in being mistrusting of US intentions in the region.

 

[Glock Glockler]

Sparks,

The idea of rights is a tool for peaceful coexistence, it exists in a state of peace, it does not, however, exist in a state of war. I arm myself because I dont rely on others to respect my rights, I rely on my ability to project power. This is no different than with nations.

If Chavez is working against the US then he should be crushed.

 

[c_yeager]

What about National security? Peronsally, I value my nation's security more than I value their nation's soverignty.

I would love to see how you rationalize that Venezuela's purchase of new rifles threatens our national security.

 

[davec]

What about National security? Peronsally, I value my nation's security more than I value their nation's soverignty.

funny, thats the same argument the gun grabbers use.