Shipping a handgun out of state.

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mgregg85

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So I'm looking to ship a handgun out of state. I've gotten a couple of different ideas about this, though I do know that it must be shipped to an FFL. I'm looking at using UPS to send it and I guess the official policy is that you have to inform them that it is a handgun and you have to use Next Day Air to send it.

Next Day Air is going to cost around $60 and that is prohibitively expensive for a $225 pistol.

I've also heard that you can tell them that the box contains 'machined parts' and thus avoid the next day air policy.

What I want to know is, is this legal? I don't really care if UPS gets mad at me but I do care if it will put me into any kind of legal trouble or stop the pistol from going to it's destination.
 
mgregg85

Just a passing thought, I want to make sure that you are not shipping to a individual, but rather a business for repair, warranty or gunsmithing. Otherwise you do not ship, your local FFL needs to.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
mgregg85

Please do not do that, I "believe" you will be committing a crime. Interstate transfer of handguns must be between FFL's. Please contact your local gun shop before you do this.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
Yeah now I'm all confused, I found this post in the corrections page for the stickied topic called "Shipping handguns sticky"

Federal law does not require that the shipper be notified a handgun is being shipped as long as it is being shipped to an FFL (licensed dealers, manufacturers, collectors, etc.), despite shipper regulations requiring notification.

18USC922(e)
Quote:
It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
__________________
Click to expand...

So what does this mean? I'm shipping it to a person's local FFL, does that mean that I don't have to notify the contract carrier?
 
Otherwise you do not ship, your local FFL needs to.
Click to expand...

Not quite right. An individual may ship via a common carrier to a FFL in another state. HOWEVER, the rub is whether or not the out-of-state FFL will accept a shipment from a non-FFL. Some will, some won't. It's up to them, not some law or regulation. You need to make sure what the receiving FFL's policy is before you ship.
 
deadin

Please send my to your information, it has been 11 years since I stopped being a FFL, at that time he could not "transfer" handguns for sale, just as you could not purchase a handgun in another state.

Maybe times have changed!
 
The short version is that an individual can ship a handgun to an FFL. However, you have to play by the shipper's rules. USPS (US Mail) doesn't allow you to do it. UPS and FedEx do, but you have to ship overnight priority (at least for FedEx, I thought UPS was similar).

I have found the cheapest way is to pay an FFL to ship to another FFL. They can then use the USPS and use Priority Mail, for example.

http://www.seark.net/~jlove/shipping.htm
 
According to US title code "18USC922(e)" I think I can without having to tell UPS that it is a handgun as long as its going to an FFL and that FFL accepts firearms shipped by a non-FFL.

At least this is how I read the code, I'm starting to think I need to ask a damn lawyer.

Here is the part of the code that I am trying to figure out...
18USC922(e)
Quote:
It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped;
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Can anyone else make sense of this legalese? I'm thinking its gonna be perfectly legal to tell UPS its machined metal and molded composite parts.
 
I'd be savin' around $40 to $50, thats gotta be worth it.:)

Nah, I won't go through with it if its not legal but right now I'm thinking it is according to that code that I cited. I'm gonna try to find out some more information.
 
mgregg85

I really think that is a GREAT idea, as I suggested, check with your local gun shop, they make their living knowing this stuff.

Good Luck
 
From the BATFE FAQ site:

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [Back]

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
Click to expand...
 
I think its just the opposite of the code you just cited. To me, maybe I am reading it wrong, but you HAVE to tell them, written notice maybe.

I sold a handgun on gunbroker and sent it via FedEx and they are the only ones I know that WILL ship guns from an individual to a receiving FFL, copy of receiving FFL enclosed in box, though it has be to priority overnight which is very expensive.

If you can find a FFL holder to ship, that is much less expensive, I have had trouble finding those though that will ship.

Ignore my first paragraph, I was trying to see something in post 11 instead of post 7 which clearly states you do not have tell them if sending to a FFL. Did not mean to add to any confusion.
 
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Yeah looks like i've gotta tell them, I was just checking out GUNBROKER.com's guidelines on shipping.

I'm about to give up on this whole thing, its crazy.
 
If the gun is going to an FFL you don't need to disclose.

FWIW, the ATF cannot prosecute anyone for USPS stuff. That's the postal inspectors' job. The ATF can only handle GCA and NFA. That's it.
 
Ahhh, the ole machine parts gambit....

Will people never learn? 2.gif

A firearm by any other name would be, well, a firearm.
 
Food for thought: If you don't declare and ship it according to UPS or FedEx rules/policies, and if it gets lost or stolen they WILL NOT PAY the insurance claim because you voided your insurance by not 'playing by their rules.' They have no obligation to pay for freight that was shipped "fraudulently."

I have personally shipped firearms as a non-licensee to an FFL using UPS. Declared it, shipped "Next Day Air Saver," no problems. I have not used FedEx--they were much more expensive. IIRC, it cost about $40 to ship a handgun UPS "Next Day Air Saver."

As others have stated, make sure the FFL will receive a firearm from an individual before shipping. Additionally, if you are on good terms with your local FFL, it may be cheaper to have your local FFL ship it USPS (only FFLs, and some other 'special' folks can ship handguns USPS) than paying overnight charges with others. Just something to consider.
 
Look at 18 USC §922(e) and 27 CFR §478.31. The common carrier only be notified the package contains a firearm, if and only if the firearm is not being delivered to a licensee.

18 USC §922(e)

(e)It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

27 CFR § 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped
 
Food for thought: If you don't declare and ship it according to UPS or FedEx rules/policies, and if it gets lost or stolen they WILL NOT PAY the insurance claim because you voided your insurance by not 'playing by their rules.' They have no obligation to pay for freight that was shipped "fraudulently."
Click to expand...

Good point. If it is going to an FFL you needn't disclose, per Federal law. But UPS and FedEx both require disclosure, so if you don't tell them, and your gun is lost, you may be SOL. There is no easy way around the shipping problem.
 
freakshow10mm said:
Look at 18 USC §922(e) and 27 CFR §478.31. The common carrier only be notified the package contains a firearm, if and only if the firearm is not being delivered to a licensee.
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Be my guest, but I suggest that anyone thinking about doing this consider the following:

[1] The ATF in the FAQs on its website has said that federal law requires that when shipping to a licensee, among others, you inform the common carrier that the package contains a firearm. They cite a number of statutes in addition to 922(e). (see post #15)

[2] This is very serious business. Based on the way ATF appears to be interpreting the law, you risk being charged with a federal felony. If charged, you will probably wind up spending tens of thousands of dollars, at least, on legal bills, time lost from work, etc., even if you win.

[3] You may not win. You risk going to jail. Even if you can avoid jail, you may well have to accept a plea bargain which will end up with your conviction of a federal felony and probation. The felony conviction makes it possible that you will lose your job -- in fact it makes it a certainty if your job requires that you be bondable. The felony conviction will also mean that your guns will be taken away, and you will no longer be able to possess a gun.

[4] With all that could be at stake, is it wise to put yourself in possible jeopardy based on advice received over the Internet, just to avoid telling UPS or FedEx that your package contains a gun? Any number of time, I've sent guns off to gunsmiths by FedEx, and verbally informed the clerk that the package contained a gun, with no problems or complications.

[5] Okay, ATF may be overreaching in its FAQs. Is it worth the risk and possible hassle just to avoid disclosure when sending the gun? And if you fail to make the required disclosure, or if you lie, you at least will lose out if the gun is lost and you have to make an insurance claim.

[6] If you're selling a gun, why not charge the buyer for shipping?
 
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