Shock effect on elk

[elktrout]

A number of years ago I read an article by Craig Boddington in which he opined that 30 caliber bullets of similar construction and sectional density had visibly greater shock effect on elk than 7mm bullets. He specifically compared 300 magnums shooting 180, and especially 200 grain bullets, to 7mm mags shooting 160 and 175 grain bullets. He continued to state that 338 caliber bullets likewise have visibly greater effects on elk than the 30 caliber bullets.

A friend of mine, who is a former guide, has killed 37 elk in his lifetime, with various guns. And, he confirms the same thing, stating that his 300 mags put them down faster than his 7mm mags.

What is your personal experience in this regard, if you have killed elk with both? No opinions please. We are all entitled to our IMHOs but let's keep this thread restricted to actual observations, as unscientific as they may be.

 

[lefteyedom]

It really boils down to shot placement.
That said I hunt elk with 338 Win Mag with 225 grain bullets.
Blame Elmer Kieth... though he would prefer I used 250 grain...

 

[USSR]

Bigger, heavier bullets have been better killers for years. Personally, I'd trade a few fps of velocity for a bigger, heavier bullet any day.

Don

 

[helotaxi]

Assuming that the bullets are of the same construction and impact with the same velocity the answer is "Duh!". If they are of the same sectional density, that means that the larger caliber bullets weigh more. More weight means more energy. Bullets of the same construction with the same sectional density impacting with the same velocity should penetrate the same except the larger caliber bullet will impart more energy on the target in the process and make both bigger permanent and temporary wound cavities.

The only questions are do you *need* that much more on-game performance and are you willing to accept the recoil penalty for it?

 

[jmr40]

In more recent writings Boddington has modifed his stance. He as come to the conclusion that a 270 is an elk round that kills them just fine.

Energy doesn't kill anything. Bullet penetration and either expansion, or using something with a very large bullet kills stuff. Energy is one way to predict expansion and penetration, but modern bullets have changed all the rules.

Years ago small fast bullets looked good with impressive energy numbers, but they lacked the penetration to get the job done. Heavy bullets would stay together while small fast bullets would break up on impact and give poor penetration. The heavy bullets got the penetration needed.

Today there are several bullet makers offering bullets that will stay together with impact velocities well over 3000 fps and drive deep while offering good expansion. The old school methods of using heavy larger diameter bullets still works as well as ever, but it isn't the only way to kill an animal in 2012. A 243 will now do the same job a 30-06 was needed for years ago.

 

[USSR]

Yep, it ain't all about the mathematical calculation of energy when it come to killing power on game. I took a large doe last year with one shot from my .45LC revolver firing a handcast 265gr LSWC HP at about 1050fps. Calculate the energy figure on that, and it won't be all that high. But the effect of creating a large caliber hole clean through an animal, resulting in massive tissue damage and rapid blood pressure loss, has to be seen to be believed.

Don

 

[X-Rap]

I have had some impressive elk kills with a 280 Rem using factory 165 Core Locs and 154 Hornady reloads, seen 270 perform pretty well also. I have also had some pretty poor IMO performance with the 308 and 165 gr factory Noslers.
Placement is a huge factor but after more than a couple dozen personal kills and many more witnessed I have come to prefer the 300 mag as a minimum and my personal favorite elk hunting guns are 338-378 and 45-70 so I guess I fall in on the bigger is better side of things.
I wouldn't hesitate to break out any of my 280's to hunt elk or 30-06 but the down range energy can become a factor in elk hunting at times.
Bottom line is hit em where it hurts with enough energy to at least reach the hide on the opposite side with a bullet that will weigh at least 120 grs when its work is done.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Shot placement and bullet construction being the same, of course a larger, heavier bullet will do more damage. Common sense.

That said, there comes a point of diminishing returns. Sure, a .378 Weatherby is Thor's hammer, but if a .300 Win Mag penetrates through-and-through with good expansion, what more will the .068" larger .378 bullet do to stop the animal? On the other hand, your shoulder will definitely know the difference, and for 99% of shooters, accuracy will suffer with heavier recoiling rounds.

I personally consider the .25-06 and up perfectly adequate for elk with proper bullet selection and good shot placement. A huge thumper of a round won't compensate for lowsy bullet placement, so shoot with a rifle you can manage. For most, the .300 mag is toward the top end of recoil tolerance, and it's certainly plenty for even the largest elk. My sister uses a .280, I use a .25-06 for cows. If I'm after bulls, I have an 8mm Rem Mag, which does outclass the .300s and even the .338 Win Mag on paper. But, I'm also accustomed to shooting it. For most people, the 51 ft/lbs of recoil that round generates in the 7.5 lb 700 BDL is a bit much, and they'd probably have greater success with a .30-06 or 7mm Mag that doesn't make them flinch. Why did I choose the 8 mag? Just like to be a little different is all. The real-world performance on game animals between it and various .300 or .338 mags is pretty much nil.

 

[T.R.]

My son killed a big 5 X 5 bull in Wyoming two yearsa ago with his deer rifle. He hunted with his Marlin levergun in 35 Remington shooting 200 grain bullets. Two quick shots into the chest and the bull went down fast. Distance was approx 125 yards. The animal died quickly because of damage to the chest organs.

Boddington is well known for his magnum rifles for everything. I read of one deer hunt in Missouri were he noted the qualities of his 300 Weatherby magnum yet the shot was taken at approx 85 yards! Boddington is a good writer but I doubt if his opinons about magnum rifles are entirely correct.

TR

 

[Jim Watson]

A friend reports that a .280 does not bounce off an elk's hide, although some of his magnumized buddies apparently thought it would.

 

[Water-Man]

My elk kills were all accomplished using a .300 Weatherby Mag..

There are other rounds that can do as well but IMO can not do any better.

 

[CraigC]

Energy doesn't kill anything. Bullet penetration and either expansion, or using something with a very large bullet kills stuff.

Yep, it ain't all about the mathematical calculation of energy when it come to killing power on game. I took a large doe last year with one shot from my .45LC revolver firing a handcast 265gr LSWC HP at about 1050fps.

One of these days, the majority of shooters will finally realize what a poor gauge kinetic energy is. If USSR's .45Colt load, which (minus the hollowpoint) will penetrate end to end on any deer that walks and probably most bull elk, does its thing whilst only producing a paltry 650ft-lbs, folks might ought to realize that perhaps energy isn't everything. Unfortunately, it's a little more complicated than that but IMHO, not very difficult to understand. However, as long as folks are obsessed with velocity and energy, popular perception and understanding will never change.

Craig Boddington is a well-known ad-whore. While he has plenty of experience, I would really lend very little credibility to anything he says. Or anything else written by G&A writers, which has not been worth the paper it's printed on since Ross Seyfried left.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My elk rifle is Bigfoot Wallace, my custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen (the most radical form of the Whelen). This rifle drives a 225 grain Nosler Partition Jacket to 2,800 fps, and any kind of a good hit is a dead elk. I particularly like being able to breat major bones and still get through-and-through penetration.

 

[Temp430]

I've killed two elk with a .30-06 at around 100 yards. Both shot through the chest with 180 gr. Nosler Partition bullets. I didn't notice any dramatic shock effect. They were both slowly walking and continued to walk with the same gait after impact for 50 feet or so when they stumbled and fell over.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

For elk, I like to break at least one front leg -- a wounded elk can get into some God-awful country and packing it out is a man-killing job.

 

[CoRoMo]

He as come to the conclusion that a 270 is an elk round that kills them just fine.

My experience says the same!

 

[Resist Evil]

I regularly hunt elk with two friends. One uses a 30.06, the other a .300 Win mag, and I a 7mm Rem mag. My friends both use 180 gr Nosler Partition bullets handloaded into their respective brass. I use factory Federal ammo with 160 gr Nosler partitions mounted.

On opening day of our elk hunt this year, the three of us scored a cow each before 0800. All three went down DRT. At 250 yards each, only the .06 was not a through and through, but only because the bullet entered the chest through the upper foreleg.

Consistent with our experiences over the eight or so years we've been doing this together, shot placement has been the singularly most important factor regardless of caliber or distance (not exceeding 400 yds). We hunt some fairly steep country and having to track a wounded animal up there is not so fun at our age, so good shot placement seems to limit what tracking we've had to do.

Even while in our cups back at the cabin after the work is done, the fire is roaring, and we are re-hashing the success or failure of the day, no one has mentioned wanting a larger or hotter caliber.

In fact, have I the means and opportunity, I'd like to reduce caliber to try a lightweight .270 topped with a light fixed power scope using 150 gr Nosler Partitions for elk next time. I'm getting tired lugging my particular darn heavy rifle up hill and down dale.

You know, I just can't figure out how come that stainless monster seems to get heavier year to year. It shoots well, though.

 

[nathan]

Isnt it the Swedes use the 6.5 x 55 caliber for moose up their area? I personally would not feel undergunned with a 7mm RM . The bad part is i dont own one....

 

[nathan]

If you watch guns and ammo tv on outdoor channel, you know Boddington host that show. He will say anything to sell the products his sponsors want to sell. The last time he had the Chiappa 1911 .22lrs on topic. And he was saying all the postiives as scripted. Now Chiappa as we know is one cheap azz product. Thats how Boddington is, he is a gun salesman and just about anything .

 

[jim243]

Craig Boddington is a well-known ad-whore. While he has plenty of experience, I would really lend very little credibility to anything he says. Or anything else written by G&A writers, which has not been worth the paper it's printed on since Ross Seyfried left.

Amen.

Jim

 

[CraigC]

Now Chiappa as we know is one cheap azz product.

It's one of the sorriest, cheapest pistols I've ever had the displeasure of handling. Which says a lot about Boddington. Whom I cannot stand to watch shoot a pistol with his "teacup" stance.

 

[buttrap]

I guess I should move up to a pointed stick as I use a 25-35 on elk at times.

 

[CryptKeeper5]

Craig Boddington is a well-known ad-whore. While he has plenty of experience, I would really lend very little credibility to anything he says. Or anything else written by G&A writers, which has not been worth the paper it's printed on since Ross Seyfried left.

x3

Further...
I've taken elk with both the .270 and .280.
I basically use the same handload in each...the difference being 10grains difference in bullet weight.

My "pet" load:
53.5 grains of IMR4350 and a 150(.270)/160(.280) grain Nosler Partition.

My pre-64 mod 70 likes them backed off about .001 from the lands;
My mod-77(280) likes them right on them.
I don't have the numbers right in front of me, however if memory serves I push the .280 round at just a couple of hundred FPS less than the 7mm mag and the identical bullet...hardly enough to be noticed by the target downrange upon impact. Maybe so though...never asked!
Both shoot MOA @100yds

I've used this load on deer and elk both and no animal squarely hit has travelled much further than a few yards.

I'm very meticulous so I've weighed the retained portion and usually end up with somewhere around 85% or so.

It's always funny to see how some of these writers believe that elk are some super-animal who absolutely will repel any pellet less than that tossed from the throat of a fire breathing, hard kicking magnum. I've never really been enamoured with them myself and don't think the extra punishment is worth the perfomance gain for anything roaming the lower 48 I care to hunt.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that more elk have been killed between the '06, the .270 than all other calibers combined. I could be wrong...but if you throw in the venerable 30-30 for good measure used prodigiously "back in the day" it's as good as truth.

 

[nickn10]

I've shot 4 Bulls and 3 cows with a 30-06, a 7mm and a win 338, Only one needed more than one shot and that was with the 7mm and a 160 nosler partition. I hit him in the neck at about 125 yds, I lead him too much, he immediately went down. When I approached him he was still breathing hard but seeing the fear in his eyes affected me. I shot him in the head to end his misery and mine. I didn't hunt for 7 years after that experience and then only once. I no longer hunt. I'm not anti hunting, I just shoot paper now.

 

[WVRJ]

Elk are large tough critters.One I remember well took 3 180 gr Partitions from my 300 Win Mag at 125 yards and just stood there looking around to see what all the noise was about.I stopped shooting to look at my scope to see what was making me miss him,and he rolled down the hill.I covered all 3 shots with the palm of my hand,and they were right in the boiler room.The next elk I killed dropped dead from one shot at 450 yards.I've only killed 6 elk,all with the same rifle and load,and 4 out of the 6 were one shot kills.I deer hunt with a 280 and wouldn't back up a bit from using it on elk.I've seen several shot with 7 mags,and the results weren't any different than with a 300.My brother killed his first elk with a 120 gr Partition out of a 25-06 and that one was just as dead.Shot placement and a decent bullet does the job out of anything sensible for elk.A big bullet going real fast won't do any better than a small one if it doesn't wind up in the right place.