Shock effect on elk

[The Grand Baboon]

I have good friend in college who's family owns a large section of mountianous land in Colorado. My friend's family would guide hunters (usually weathy buisnessman) on elk hunts on the property. By his own admission, in the innumerable aomunt of elk he's seen shot, the majority of ones that had to be tracked down were shot with a 7mm Mag or similar cartridge. Maybe that's just something to say about the hunters, but my friend swore by any large centerfire that slung a 30. caliber bullet, 30-06, 308., 300 WSM, etc.

 

[CraigC]

Such anecdotal information, no matter how extensive, is only useful if we know what bullets were used and how they performed. Similarly constructed bullets of equivalent sectional densities, driven to comparable velocities will tend to perform similarly. Thus, you can't say that the .300's are great and the 7mm is marginal if the 7mm shooters used the wrong bullet. Similarly, you can't say the 7mm is wonderful with Partitions but the .300 is terrible if your only point of reference is with elk shot with the 125gr ballistic tip.

 

[AJumbo]

I've killed four elk, which doesn't give me a huge data base; I have only used one round per elk, however. My first was hit with a factory Remington "trapdoor-safe" 405 gr. soft point, fired from a Sharps carbine repro. If memory serves, this load advertised about 1400 fps. It was a quartering-away shot at about 85 yards. The bullet went through the heart and broke up the off shoulder, coming to rest just under the hide. He was dead before I could walk up to him. The next two were killed with a .54 muzzleloader loaded with a patched round ball and 110 gr of FFg, both broadside and within 70 yards. Neither required a finishing shot. My most recent was with a sweet, vintage Winchester M70 chambered in .300 Winchester. I chose the first factory-loaded Barnes "X" loading I ever saw for the hunt, and bought all five boxes the shop had. After practicing for 300-yard shots, my cow jumped up 50 yards from me, again broadside, and I stuffed the 180 gr. bullet in her heart. Of all four elk, she's the only one that ran at all, though she only managed a hundred feet or so before succumbing.

One of my partners on the first hunt used a .338 H&H on his elk, and scored three boiler room hits before it went down. I helped dress the elk and am convinced that any of the shots would have killed that animal, but he just got a little trigger happy when the bull didn't get picked up and slammed to the forest floor. Dad got his elk that day with a 30-06 firing Remington 180 gr. round points, one and done, no tracking.

What I take away from this is that using enough gun is essential, and that using more gun than necessary is just fine, but does not relieve you of placing the bullet correctly. I would feel perfectly comfortable using my 6.5x55, as long as I am able to place the shot the way I want it placed. Using the 6.5 would make it doubly important for me to avoid full-on shoulder shots, but it would be capable if I did my part. That being said, I'd reach for any of the other rifles I mentioned above, given a choice.

 

[HARV6]

If you dig hard enough you can find an article from David Petzal where he states he put a shot through the chest of a bull elk inside of 75 yards with a 340 wby. And it ran a something like 300 yards before dropping. I believe an individual animal's drive/will to live/attitude is a bigger part of the equation that can't ever be accounted for unless you're taking brain and spine shots.

 

[WYcoyote]

I have taken 28 elk with the first 20 being with a 7 RM and the last 8 with a .300 WM.
About 8 of 10 will go down nicely and the other 2 will astound you with their will to live. Losing a wounded elk is a very bitter pill to swallow. Even some deer can pack some lead sometimes, so imagine what a juiced up herd bull could do.
That was the reason I upgraded to the .300. From what I've seen bigger is better as long as you can tolerate the recoil enough to not compromise bullet placement.
The .338 WM would be near ideal and sometimes I wish I took that next step.
I know smaller calibers can kill an elk but from my experience I would recommend to hit them hard to help keep from choking down that pill that someday will surely come.

 

[ApplePie]

The title of this post is "Shock effect on elk".
I think something basic is missing from this discussion. What exactly do you mean by "shock effect"? Are you talking about what happens on TV or the movies when someone is shot at close range with a shotgun? The person is lifted off the floor and thrown back against a wall?

I don't like the term "shock effect" because it is too nebulous. Perhaps you mean "quick, clean killing effectiveness" or something like that? Perhaps you mean the amount of tissue damage?

In any case, I don't think "shock" even exists when a tiny 140 to 180 grain bullet hits a 500 pound elk. Tissue damage happens. Typically, the elk shows NO reaction to the hit other than running and/or falling over. I have shot over a dozen elk with a .54-cal muzzleloader, 30/06, .300 Weatherby Magnum and .300 Winchester Magnum cartridges, watched another dozen being shot by my friends, and not once did I notice any reaction by an elk that I would describe as a "shock effect" unless the spine were hit. The effect of rapid blood pressure loss; sure; but not "shock".

The problem with comparing big game cartridges for killing effectiveness is that very little REAL scientific data exists. Every elk that I have seen hit in the vitals with ANY high-velocity big-game cartridge died, died quickly, and was easily recovered. Every elk that I know or assume was hit outside of the vitals with any cartridge was either lost or went a very long distance, unless the spine or a rear leg bone was broken.

I think comparing a 7mm magnum against a 300 magnum for killing effectiveness is laughable, as long as you are using the right bullet. Either one is a fine elk cartridge if you do your part and don't take questionable shots that have a good chance of wounding rather than killing an elk. I don't like people who take rear running shots at elk.

I didn't get an elk this season. I had three chances where I could have shot at the rear of a moving elk at close range and most likely hit some part of the animal, but each time I held my fire. I have more respect for an elk than that. I don't like gun writers who espouse the use of heavy bullets because those bullets do better at "pushing through to the vitals" on a rear facing shot.

 

[CraigC]

I don't like gun writers who espouse the use of heavy bullets because those bullets do better at "pushing through to the vitals" on a rear facing shot.

If you're using a big bore like the .45/70 with heavyweight cast bullets of 420gr or more, which is pretty much guaranteed to exit from any angle, what difference does it make where the bullet enters, as long as it passes through the vital organs??? Aside from the obvious issue when it comes to cleaning a critter that has had a bullet pass through its digestive organs.

 

[RevGeo]

Several years ago I was hunting a certain large whitetail buck I had seen on the logging road behind my house. I was climbing a pretty steep hill and stopped to take a break and eat a Tootsie Roll. I unwrapped the candy, popped it into my mouth, looked up and two cow elk were just standing there staring at me about 40 yards away. I generally don't like full-frontal shots but it was all I had so I shot the biggest one right in the middle of the chest with a sporterized 6.5x55 Swede carbine I had recently bought from a friend. The load was a Hornady 160gr RN and 43gr of H380. She dropped like a stone and when I walked up to her she was dead. The bullet had taken off the top of her heart, burst one lung, went through the liver and lodged under the skin on her left ham. I didn't notice any 'shock'; it was BANG-flop, kick-kick, dead.
The last elk I shot, a few years ago, was a spike bull at 117 paces. Hit him in the right shoulder with a 30-40 Krag. 180gr Hornady Interlock and 45gr of H380. He fell over, kicked a few times with his rear legs and died. The bullet broke both shoulders.
I haven't shot too many elk, but have been in on some kills as well and I'm convinced that if they are hit in the vitals with any rifle considered to be a 'big game' gun they will die pretty quickly.

 

[Ky Larry]

So are we to conclude that a good bullet, properly placed, is more important than caliber? What a radical concept.