shooting an auto accurately

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dadof6

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I could use some advice on shooting my Sig a little better. P220 Stainless. I typically have used Remington UMC sometimes AA. And for a while now handloads - 230grn ball, or JHP. wanting to simulate the 'ball' that i have loaded for HD.

At 10 yards the best i can seem to do is about 3-4" groups off hand. And yet i see others shooting one small hole at that distance. One time I did shoot a real small hole with someone's target loads.

I have also shot my friends XD in 45 and did shoot smaller groups. the gun felt 'smaller' in my hands. wondering if a smaller auto would be easier for me to control/point?

Just wondering how to approach improving my accuracy? different ammo? target loads did well with factory recoil spring, but I am not keeping target stuff in my go-to safe. I am thinking it is the way I am gripping the gun. not keeping it steady enough.

the sight picture always looks spot on, and then I am confounded by the shot going 3" here or there.

maybe my slide is a little too loose? Not sure how much play is ok and how much is too much?

I only have about 1700 rounds through it. I would think it has a lot more life in the barrel than that, right?

It is good enough for HD, but I know the gun can do better. I'd like to at least use up more of its potential accuracy.

Any advice on shrinking group size would be appreciated.
 
I'm sure you'll get many answers here because there are many components that make up the act of shooting. I would suggest taking a few lessons with an NRA certified instructor. It helped my shooting.
 
SIG P220 is a good pistol, should outshoot any XD, just based on the trigger. Grip and trigger control are the two most important factors in marksmanship. I would keep the P220 and take a step back to take a leap forward. I would get a good .22lr target pistol or get a conversion for the P220. You may just be anticipating recoil (flinching), or may not have enough finger on the trigger. Also look up the "Thumbs Forward grip" it has made a better shooter out of me. If you are set in replacing your pistol with one that will give tight groups at ranges out ot 50 yards get a M1911-A1 pistol with a match grade barrel and 3.5-4 lb trigger. STI makes entry level pistols that will outperform anything in it's price range, like an STI Spartan at $600+ and the Trojan at $1000. I have 4 1911s, including the STI Trojan in 9mm, it's amazing, all my 1911s make me look good, but I first learned the basic skill set on a .22lr target pistol.
 
The 220 is a very accurate pistol but not the easiest to shoot accurately. Lots and lots of dry firing will probably help you the most.
 
there are many components that make up the act of shooting
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Right. It's a lot more than sight picture. I've found this text to be helpful in improving my own accuracy: The Mechanics Of X-Count Shooting

He goes into deep detail on grip, trigger finger position, trigger-pull technique, breathing, etc. Then, beyond all this, there's sightless point shooting.

One thing to keep in mind is that all of your study and training and practice should always be done against the question of "is what I'm doing right now going to help me in the event of a critical situation?"

I'd rather be able to punch a 3" group every time in rapid fire under high stress than be able to hit a 1" group only when concentrating under slow fire.
 
Read this: Army Marksmanship Unit's Pistol Training Guide, and then re-read it.

A couple other tips for shooting at close range:
1. Aim small..shoot small. In other words you need a small aiming point to align the sights. A small target sticker works well.

2. Look (focus) on the front sight and not the target or the bullet holes. Resist immediately looking at the target for the bullet hole. The target will be slightly out of focus, keep it that way.

3. Align your pistol correctly Todd Jarrett IPSC Pistol Grip Lesson.

4. Press directly back on your trigger and squeeze rather than pull. A surprise release will put the bullet where aimed every time.
 
it is easy to explain but harder to make happen with a handgun especially.

It is sights, and trigger. that is all it is too it. as long as you can get the sights aligned and keep them that way until the shot breaks, while manipulating the trigger, with a smooth press to the rear you will hit the mark everytime.
 
I believe the best investment for anyone wanting to be a better shot with a pistol is a good .22 LR pistol. It allows you to work on all aspects of pistol shooting, from sight alignment to getting rid of a flinch. Most importantly it allows you to shoot a whole bunch of rounds for not a lot of money. It was by far the best investment in shooting I've ever made.

Secondly find out any bad habits you may have through research or instruction and work them out using the .22.

I highly recommend the Ruger 22/45 or mark 3.

Those p220's are accurate pistols and your barrel will probably just be getting broken in around 10k rounds. Sig's barrels are excellent.
 
Ditto on the .22. If you don't have a .22 you're wasting money and time.

One other tip for group shooting. This may sound dumb, but will shrink your groups. Simply buy some target dots (or bits of masking tape, a sharpy pen, whatever) to create a precise aiming point on your target. The big 6" bull on most pistol targets doesn't give you a precise point to hold when focused on the front sight. If you stick a dot in the center of that bull, your groups will magically shrink.
 
The P220 stainless is a great gun and a very natural shooter for me, so hang in there, it will get better.

The .22 recommendation is a good one.

Lighten up those hand loads. I was out today with my P220 SSS and shot some very light 200 grain plated SWC loads using Walkalong's recipe, and the light loads allowed me to concentrate on sight picture and trigger pull. I shot pretty darn well, better than I would have with full power ammo.

Get some good (A-Zoom) snap caps and do some dry fire practice.

Shoot fewer, better rounds. Load just two or three rounds in the mag and concentrate on getting off just a couple good shots, then stop for a while. Shoot fewer rounds total during each range trip, remind yourself that they are expensive, and recoil is the same whether you flinch or not.

Ear plugs and muffs! Thin mechanic's gloves help too.

One thing that helped me get over flinching was holding my eyes wide open. You might be surprised to find your eyes were closed at the moment of firing, holding both eyes wide open will help. Oversize safety goggles help keep muzzle blast from bothering your eyes.

The P220 has a nice slim frame, and you can get a wide variety of grips to fit. I dumped the factory aluminum grips and bought a set of wrap around finger groove grips from CDNN, less than $20.

I shoot at paper plates or blank cardboard. Focus on the alignment of the front and rear sights, just let the front sight float near the center of a blank target. I shoot my best groups at 25 yards on paper plates. I'm convinced the front/rear sight alignment is more important than front sight/target alignment.

Patience, practice.
 
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Dummy rounds mixed into your mags will iron out any problems with trigger control.
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This is a great suggestion. I use 1 dummy round per magazine when i practice/ train at the range. I personally make dummy/ inert rounds out of reloads, so they look exactly like a regular round. same bullet and all just no powder and primer. If you don't reload there are several places that you can get "action trainers" they do the same thing as "snap caps" but much less expensive.

You can not dismiss the benefits of professional training, it isn't that big among many of the members of this forum, as many think that they are good enough, and or what their daddy showed them is gospel and absolutely best. Training is the best investment for your life when it comes to shooting, owning guns, and defending yourself.
 
I am by no means an expert. I found shooting my target grade .22 did little for shooting my bigger caliber handguns. I found the 2-3lb. trigger only made me good with a .22.
One guy hear said it best, shoot less rounds and concentrate on that trigger pull. I find that most of my bad days are due to lousy trigger control. Consistant grip is another big part IMO.
Low recoil handloads would go a long way in helping you practice flinch control.

If you want to shoot 2" groups at 50ft, buy a target gun. If I can shoot 3" groups at 50ft, I'm a happy camper.
I would venture a guess that only a small group of guys can shoot ragged holes consistantly with an out of the box stock SD handgun with iron sights.
 
I have shot quite a few handguns, mostly semi-autos. I had a P220 several years ago, but for whatever reason could not shoot well with it. I tried various ammo brands, but had the same results with each. I'm actually shoot pretty well, so I was not so inclined to think it was something I was doing wrong. I eventually traded the P220 and have never looked back. I have quite a few .45 ACPs that I love to shoot. There was just something a bit odd about the P220 (for me). You may be experiencing something similar.
 
I have done a lot of what was said... trigger control, dry fire, snap caps (not while shooting real rounds though...hmmm?), I have a browning buckmark, but that is so different that I can't seem to make the connection to the .45 auto. I am very aware of focus on the front site, target blurry.

I concur with the aim small, miss small phenonmenon. smaller targets have smaller groups.

And yet one time I shot a 1/2 dollar size hole with two mags worth of target reloads from a friend.

I don't think I flinch. well, most of the time I don't. the p220 st is heavy and recoil is manageable.

maybe i do need something else.
 
I have a browning buckmark, but that is so different that I can't seem to make the connection to the .45 auto.
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??? Perhaps you're not talking about a 1911 style auto? I find them pretty much identical, except that the Buckmark costs less than 1/10th as much to shoot. And that's the key - the more you shoot, the better you get. Many times I've shot an entire bulk pack of .22 in an afternoon (500 or 550 rounds) before even picking up a centerfire pistol. And let me tell you, when you do finally pick up that "real" gun, you're in the zone, my friend!
 
I don't think I flinch. well, most of the time I don't. the p220 st is heavy and recoil is manageable.
Click to expand...

you may be surprised about the difference between dry firing when you know a pistol is empty compared to when you think it is loaded. When working on my flinch I use my double action revolvers loaded with 5 live and 1 dummy. That is the ultimate test if you are flinching or not and a fine way to work it out. The same can be done with an auto using a dummy round, which I'm going to incorporate into my practice now.
 
dadof6 said:
I have done a lot of what was said... trigger control, dry fire, snap caps (not while shooting real rounds though...hmmm?), I have a browning buckmark, but that is so different that I can't seem to make the connection to the .45 auto. I am very aware of focus on the front site, target blurry.

I concur with the aim small, miss small phenonmenon. smaller targets have smaller groups.

And yet one time I shot a 1/2 dollar size hole with two mags worth of target reloads from a friend.

I don't think I flinch. well, most of the time I don't. the p220 st is heavy and recoil is manageable.

maybe i do need something else.
Click to expand...
Snap Caps are not a long term substitute for dummy rounds in an autoloader. The "bullet" compresses slightly each time it is chambered and eventually will not feed.

The ball and dummy round exercise will quickly expose what you are doing wrong. Try it. If you have not improved your shooting after a couple of outings to the range, send me a message and I'll buy the dummies from you for whatever you paid.
 
FullEffect1911 said:
you may be surprised about the difference between dry firing when you know a pistol is empty compared to when you think it is loaded. When working on my flinch I use my double action revolvers loaded with 5 live and 1 dummy. That is the ultimate test if you are flinching or not and a fine way to work it out. The same can be done with an auto using a dummy round, which I'm going to incorporate into my practice now.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Dry firing is beneficial, but it will not expose the flinch. Dummy rounds do an excellent job of exposing what is usually masked by the blast, noise and movement of the pistol when shooting.
 
Shooting is much more than sight picture though. When you are shooting, are you concentrating on your breathing and trigger finger pull? I see people shoot with their hands rather than their trigger finger. My Buck Mark helped me to train myself to do both

Even though they are two different triggers, what I learned on the .22LR Buck Mark transfered over to my .45 XD

buckmarktarget82110.jpg
xd45c5target.jpg

Still mad about those two flyers on the Buck Mark target though
 
Jed Carter said:
SIG P220 is a good pistol, should outshoot any XD, just based on the trigger.
Click to expand...

I would counter that there is a relatively small percentage of shooters that will actually see significant benefit from the "better" trigger of the SIG at 10 yards.

IMO, about 99.9999% of shooting is the shooter. The other 0.00001% is the gun.

To the OP, I would echo the training suggestions made by other posters.
 
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