Shooting gilding metal bullets solely in overbore chamberings (big game)

[DannyLandrum]

Does this paradigm I've come to adopt in the last couple of years stand to reason - anyone else do the same?

I like premium bullets for big game, for obvious reasons (you want good performance because any hunt might turn out to be the hunt of a lifetime if you encounter a trophy animal). So that means bonded, partition, or gilding metal.

But gilding metal bullets (E-Tip, GMX, TTSX, etc) tend to expand well ONLY at 1800 fps on up (and even then offer minimalist expansion at 1800ish fps), whereas bonded and partitions work great at even lower velocities (down to a point anyway). Given that I might realistically take a 400+ yard shot on big game around here, I've settled on using gilding metal for the highest-velocity chamberings and only those screamer chamberings, and other types of premiums for still-high-speed-bottlenecked-rounds, yet which are not really so "overbore" (which of course has no clear definition, but basically, if coming out of the muzzle sub-3000 fps, we'll put it in this category).

For example, I'm using the 85 E-Tip (in the form of factory Federal Trophy copper) in .243 Win, and the 100 E-Tip in .25-'06. But for .280 Rem I'm using 139 Interbonds, and for .30-'06 I'm using 150 Accubonds. So am I worrying too much about gilding metal bullets slowing down too much and not expanding at long distances? I'd like to use them in other chamberings too, as they have a couple of advantages (better BC to weight ratio generally; environmentally friendly), but I like to be on the safe side of the expansion issue, and the 1800 fps is just a stated minimum coming from marketing materials, which might be optimistic, so I'd like to be hitting at at least 2000 fps even at 450 yards, which is personally *my* chosen maximum distance for any game, giving my equipment, skills, and conditions. Just wondering if this is a viable dichotomy that others have adopted as well.

P.S. If it helps, the .243 and the .25-'06 are solely for deer, sheep, goat, pronghorn, tundra 'bou, etc, and as such would have a maximum shot attempt for *me* of 375-400 yards, not 450, as the vital zones are smaller. For .280 and .30-06, these might have a 450 yard shot at an elk, which further reinforces my concerns about speed retention for copper bullets.

 

[Skoghund]

All the tests done in Sweden have shown that mono bullets need good velocity to expand well. Nearly all of our hunting is relatively short range hunting so mono bullets should not be a problem for us. Like the OP i like premium bullets and shoot Norma Oryx in my two .308's and 7x57R. Norma oryx bullets that i have retrieved from moose and deer have all had over 90% retained weight. To me that environmentally friendly, plus they would expand well with longer shots.
I have bought a 8x57jrs double rifle that was regulated with Lapua Naturalis, copper bullets. I'm sure lapua Naturalis must be the world most expensive mono bullet. I've hand loaded them to 777m/s and they shoot very well but being a double rifle it will be used for short range driven game only. I'll see how they preform on boar later in the year.
When I'm back in Scotland next year after red stags, normally shot at longer ranges, it will be Norma Oryx I'll be using. I'll be sticking with what i know works and not worry about a few grains of lead in the deer carcass.

 

[horsey300]

Does this paradigm I've come to adopt in the last couple of years stand to reason - anyone else do the same?

I like premium bullets for big game, for obvious reasons (you want good performance because any hunt might turn out to be the hunt of a lifetime if you encounter a trophy animal). So that means bonded, partition, or gilding metal.

But gilding metal bullets (E-Tip, GMX, TTSX, etc) tend to expand well ONLY at 1800 fps on up (and even then offer minimalist expansion at 1800ish fps), whereas bonded and partitions work great at even lower velocities (down to a point anyway). Given that I might realistically take a 400+ yard shot on big game around here, I've settled on using gilding metal for the highest-velocity chamberings and only those screamer chamberings, and other types of premiums for still-high-speed-bottlenecked-rounds, yet which are not really so "overbore" (which of course has no clear definition, but basically, if coming out of the muzzle sub-3000 fps, we'll put it in this category).

For example, I'm using the 85 E-Tip (in the form of factory Federal Trophy copper) in .243 Win, and the 100 E-Tip in .25-'06. But for .280 Rem I'm using 139 Interbonds, and for .30-'06 I'm using 150 Accubonds. So am I worrying too much about gilding metal bullets slowing down too much and not expanding at long distances? I'd like to use them in other chamberings too, as they have a couple of advantages (better BC to weight ratio generally; environmentally friendly), but I like to be on the safe side of the expansion issue, and the 1800 fps is just a stated minimum coming from marketing materials, which might be optimistic, so I'd like to be hitting at at least 2000 fps even at 450 yards, which is personally *my* chosen maximum distance for any game, giving my equipment, skills, and conditions. Just wondering if this is a viable dichotomy that others have adopted as well.

P.S. If it helps, the .243 and the .25-'06 are solely for deer, sheep, goat, pronghorn, tundra 'bou, etc, and as such would have a maximum shot attempt for *me* of 375-400 yards, not 450, as the vital zones are smaller. For .280 and .30-06, these might have a 450 yard shot at an elk, which further reinforces my concerns about speed retention for copper bullets.

At 400 yds, I'd swap from coppers to bonded for game with the .243, I run 86 gr etips on coyotes out to 800, and even at 400 yds, the expansion is unimpressive (thus a good hide bullet), for such bullets I recommend the 100gr gameking/prohunter@2900+ fps, 95 gr btips(though avoided if shots will be under 75 yds), and 90gr accubonds.

 

[Patocazador]

Decades ago, I found that Nosler Partitions kill deer, elk, moose, and African plains game just great. I never have seen a reason to switch.

 

[entropy]

Overbore would be shooting .25 caliber bullets in a .243. That is the incorrect term for what you mean. And I agree with Patocazador, Nosler Partitions have performed well for me also. If you need further expansion, use a Varmint-type bullet. (V-Max, etc.)

 

[horsey300]

Overbore would be shooting .25 caliber bullets in a .243. That is the incorrect term for what you mean. And I agree with Patocazador, Nosler Partitions have performed well for me also. If you need further expansion, use a Varmint-type bullet. (V-Max, etc.)

I thought overbore was the term used for cartridges such as the .243 or .260 etc, and that underbore would be a .338 federal or .35 rem, what is the correct terminology?

 

[entropy]

Overbore or underbore concerns bullet diameter vs. gun bore diameter. From my understanding of his use, it concerns velocity. I do handload, and maybe it means something different there, but I am a gunsmith, and there it means bullet diameter vs. bore diameter. I.E., the Mosin Nagant is supposedly a 7.62mm rifle, (.308), yet very few of them mike out at that. (I've found one, a Finn, that did.) Most mike out at .311-.314, making a .311 dia. bullet underbore in most Mosins, overbore in a very few. Another example would be the .451 vs .452 controversy on bullets for .45 ACP.

The correct term for what he means is simply "high-velocity" Hijacking a technical term used for something entirely different can lead to confusion, especially considering that overbore and under bore can have effects on handloading also.

 

[horsey300]

Overbore or underbore concerns bullet diameter vs. gun bore diameter. From my understanding of his use, it concerns velocity. I do handload, and maybe it means something different there, but I am a gunsmith, and there it means bullet diameter vs. bore diameter. I.E., the Mosin Nagant is supposedly a 7.62mm rifle, (.308), yet very few of them mike out at that. (I've found one, a Finn, that did.) Most mike out at .311-.314, making a .311 dia. bullet underbore in most Mosins, overbore in a very few. Another example would be the .451 vs .452 controversy on bullets for .45 ACP.

The correct term for what he means is simply "high-velocity" Hijacking a technical term used for something entirely different can lead to confusion, especially considering that overbore and under bore can have effects on handloading also.

Thank you for that clarification, that does make sense.

 

[jmr40]

No he is using the right term. For example cartridges based on the 30-06 case that are smaller than 30 caliber are considered overbore. Even 30-06 is considered slightly overbore. Larger calibers based on the case such as 338-06 or 35 Whelen are not.

Any of the solid copper bullets need speed to expand, and even though the manufacturers state 1800 fps as a minimum most hunters are saying 2000 fps is a more accurate true minimum. And 2200 and above provide ideal results. In reality 1800-2000 fps is a more realistic minimum for most conventional bullets. But in MOST calibers you can still get 2000 fps out to 400 yards. The key is to not shoot heavy for caliber bullets. They aren't needed since the copper will penetrate much better even in the lighter bullets. Looking at load data I have a 150 gr TTSX fired from my 30-06 it still has 2203 fps at 400 yards and 2015 fps at 500 yards. A 150 gr copper bullet will out penetrate a 180 gr conventional bullet and I'd not have any doubts about a 150 gr TTSX being an elk load out to at least 400 yards.

The mistake people make is shooting bullets too heavy, and too slow when using copper. A 180 gr conventional bullet is a good choice in an elk bullet in 30-06. But with copper the 150 is actually a better choice. Even at magnum speeds a 165 gr copper bullet is all that is really needed in 30 caliber. Lots of guys are shooting 130 gr copper bullets out of 308's at 3000-3100 fps. That bullet will match 180 gr conventional bullets for penetration and still impact at almost 2100 fps out to 400 yards.

It is the shots out at 600-700 yards where copper is too slow. Really soft bullets like Bergers which still expand down to 1800 fps or even slower start being a better option way out there. I'd look at the speeds you are getting and plug it into a ballistics program and see where you drop below 2000-2200 fps and call that my maximum range.

 

[redneck]

According to this article "overbore" has to do with the relationship between case capacity and bore diameter. By their chart, .243 is definitely an overbore cartridge:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/overbore-cartridges-defined-by-formula/

 

[Patocazador]

Overbore is a poor choice for a name to signify that the cartridge is wasting powder. A .25-06 has more powder than can be burned in the barrel thereby producing powder and flame coming out of the muzzle. This is believed to shorten barrel life after many rounds have been fired.
A .250 Savage, however, is more efficient as far as burning the powder while the bullet is still in the barrel. The same 87 or 100 grain bullet may be used but the terminal velocity of the bullet in the larger case will be greater. Each, however, is sufficient to do the job as far as hunting is concerned.

 

[entropy]

No he is using the right term. For example cartridges based on the 30-06 case that are smaller than 30 caliber are considered overbore. Even 30-06 is considered slightly overbore. Larger calibers based on the case such as 338-06 or 35 Whelen are not.

Any of the solid copper bullets need speed to expand, and even though the manufacturers state 1800 fps as a minimum most hunters are saying 2000 fps is a more accurate true minimum. And 2200 and above provide ideal results. In reality 1800-2000 fps is a more realistic minimum for most conventional bullets. But in MOST calibers you can still get 2000 fps out to 400 yards. The key is to not shoot heavy for caliber bullets. They aren't needed since the copper will penetrate much better even in the lighter bullets. Looking at load data I have a 150 gr TTSX fired from my 30-06 it still has 2203 fps at 400 yards and 2015 fps at 500 yards. A 150 gr copper bullet will out penetrate a 180 gr conventional bullet and I'd not have any doubts about a 150 gr TTSX being an elk load out to at least 400 yards.

The mistake people make is shooting bullets too heavy, and too slow when using copper. A 180 gr conventional bullet is a good choice in an elk bullet in 30-06. But with copper the 150 is actually a better choice. Even at magnum speeds a 165 gr copper bullet is all that is really needed in 30 caliber. Lots of guys are shooting 130 gr copper bullets out of 308's at 3000-3100 fps. That bullet will match 180 gr conventional bullets for penetration and still impact at almost 2100 fps out to 400 yards.

It is the shots out at 600-700 yards where copper is too slow. Really soft bullets like Bergers which still expand down to 1800 fps or even slower start being a better option way out there. I'd look at the speeds you are getting and plug it into a ballistics program and see where you drop below 2000-2200 fps and call that my maximum range.

Well, you learn something new every day! I've been reloading rifle since 1977, and never heard that term used in reloading, only as I mentioned before for gunsmithing. Surely you can appreciate where that term so applied could be confusing, espcecially since it has an arbitrary setpoint. Particularly when you say .30-06 is 'overbore' , when the arbitrary setpoint (for 30 cal. ) is the .30-06! (or is it .30-03? Machs Nichs, it is still .308, thus it cannot be overbore for for itself) .30-06 Ackley Improved might be considered 'overbore' by this definition. I still contend the usage of the word is incorrect-of course, I also believe the word pistol means any hand held gun excluding revolvers, not just semi-automatics, and I am correct: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pistol , but I am outvoted. I find it appalling that P.O. Ackley, one of the eminent gunsmiths of the 20th Century, may have coined the term! Gunsmithing and reloading are endeavors that require precision in speech, you don't call Ahlman's and say " I need a thing-a-ma-jig for the boogerhook on a turdy ott six" though often the the customer comes in and says that to us....

I propose "sub-optimal" for underbored and "overpowered" for overbored.

 

[DM~]

But gilding metal bullets (E-Tip, GMX, TTSX, etc) tend to expand well ONLY at 1800 fps on up (and even then offer minimalist expansion at 1800ish fps), whereas bonded and partitions work great at even lower velocities (down to a point anyway

You do realize that "qilding metal" is an alloy don't you?

Nosler bonded and their partition bullets are made with gilding metal, so I'm thinking you are confused with your question!

DM

 

[Patocazador]

I propose "sub-optimal" for underbored and "overpowered" for overbored.

I agree. Semantics is a slippery slope.

 

[1stmarine]

In my experience it is hard to make a fair assessment based on the bullet maker and line of bullets.
Like the solid bullets you mentioned the terminal effectiveness at different speeds might change a lot from one manufacturer to another and even from one caliber to another in the same line.
It is true when someone refers to lets say a TSX from barnes they initially present the same characteristics and design directives for behaviour upon impact.
They are quite reliable in general but these ones specifically enjoy high speed at impact. The 1800fps is a pretty arbitrary and artificial reference and many will not do well
even at those speeds. Also it doesn't say much w/o knowing the type of animal and body complexity and intended penetration.
For the average hunting they will not work too well much lower than 2200 to 2100fps and that is why for these bullets sometimes is better to go lower in grain and therefore assure
a much higher impact speed. Because of their stout nature one can afford a bit loss in SD in exchange for impact speed that will assure fast energy transfers.
As the bore and section increases then one might see solid bullets that activate ok at lower speeds and it comes a point where a large bore even with a flat metplat displaces so much
fluid that hydrostatic shock and massive trauma will also happen much faster regarless of lower speeds and expansion. The bores are already pretty large.
This is also why some of the most effective classic hunting rounds for medium game drive light bullets at massive impact speeds anything from a 243, wetherby, small WSM, 270 and or -06 derivates.

Again, it is hard to generalize and best to discusss specific caliber and bullet for the specific job at hand.
There are well known formulas in terms of bullets and ammo for the given type of animal and also always matching the load to that type of animal and body weight.

I hope makes sense.

 

[buck460XVR]

You do realize that "qilding metal" is an alloy don't you?

Nosler bonded and their partition bullets are made with gilding metal, so I'm thinking you are confused with your question!

DM

A majority of jacketed bullets use gilding metal for their jackets. Many times the type of alloy used and the thickness, determines expansion/penetration qualities.

 

[DM~]

A majority of jacketed bullets use gilding metal for their jackets. Many times the type of alloy used and the thickness, determines expansion/penetration qualities.

Which is why the OP's question really doesn't make any sense...

DM

 

[redneck]

Which is why the OP's question really doesn't make any sense...

DM

The bullets he is referring to are made entirely of gilding metal, aka mono metal, solid copper, lead free etc.(similar to the barnes line of bullets)The partition bullets and what not are made of gilding metal with a lead core and expand better at lower velocities than bullets that are construction entirely of copper or copper alloys.

 

[DM~]

The bullets he is referring to are made entirely of gilding metal, aka mono metal, solid copper, lead free etc.(similar to the barnes line of bullets)The partition bullets and what not are made of gilding metal with a lead core and expand better at lower velocities than bullets that are construction entirely of copper or copper alloys.

Thanks for splaining it to me, it just didn't make sense to me the way that he worded it...

I did understand that he mentioned mono-metal bullets, but it didn't sound like he understood the "others" are gilding metal too. Some folks think that all bonded core bullets have "copper" jackets...

Thanks again,

DM

 

[1stmarine]

The main factor in jacketed bullets is based on the thickness of the jacket/s and the actual composition. Also whether they have a channel and the diameter of that channel
for the intended speeds.
Some solid copper alloys are not designed to expand but work based on fragmentation that normally leaves a substantial slug in the back.
But again, even w/o any or minium expansion, when you get to the larger bores, a flat metplat is pretty effective as it displaces the fluid media very rapidly and agressively
and leads to broad and deep wounding. Even slow large bore flat metplat cast bullets are very effective at this just as shotgun slugs.
Those are going to be harder than other lead for smaller subsonic calibers. Those could say those are "solid" all lead bullets.
Buffalo Bore and Grizzly are good examples of high performance lead ammo for hunting. Buffalo bore also have bonded and solid premium loads as many others do.
Like I said, IMO the best thing is to study the bullet in the given model and caliber independently and in preparation for the hunt matching the best one can to type of game and body weigth.

 

[buck460XVR]

The bullets he is referring to are made entirely of gilding metal, aka mono metal, solid copper, lead free etc.(similar to the barnes line of bullets)The partition bullets and what not are made of gilding metal with a lead core and expand better at lower velocities than bullets that are construction entirely of copper or copper alloys.

Then he should refer to them as monolithic to avoid confusion. Not only is he confusing us, but he himself seems to be confused as to specifics and correct terminology. While most of us thought we understood what he was talking about, it was unclear as if we were correct. Even monolithic bullets can be designed to properly expand at lower velocities and, lighter skinned game, depending on their construction and alloy content. But for the most part, they are not needed, cost more, and are overkill for those scenarios. Exception us where lead free ammo must be used.