Shooting left

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ccw_steve

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I realize there are a million other threads similar to this, but I am hoping that I can get more feedback specific to me if I post a new thread.

I have been shooting for ~2 years now, mostly pistols. I own a G19 and a Springfield Xd(m), and love both of them. Unfortunately, after two years of shooting as much as I can afford (college budget = about 2 range trips a month) I am STILL shooting to the left. I have tried several other styles of handgun all with the same results.

At 20', I shoot about 1.5-2" left of center. It is so discouraging, as I have practiced dry firing for hours on end! I tried adjusting my grip (currently using both thumbs up "a la Todd Jarrett"), but even that didn't affect my shot placement. I have even tried putting random snap caps in my magazines to ensure I am not flinching.

I am not willing to adjust my sights; I want to get to the point that I can pick up any handgun and be semi-accurate with it. But if I can't shoot straight at 20', I don't have a prayer! I am getting to the point where I am willing to put significantly more time and energy into solving this problem once and for all! So guys, what the heck should I do next???
 
If you have already tried snap caps and tweaking your grip without success, it sounds like the best course of action would be to get some personal instruction. If you keep practice the way you are going, especially if the habit crosses platforms, you are just ingraining bad habits.

A good instructor should be able to watch you shoot, make a few suggestions and fix whatever you are doing incorrectly in a fairly short time. It is much easier for another party to see what you are doing, then to see it yourself.

Just curious, have you had anyone else shoot your guns to see how they shoot for them?

Also how tight a group are you shooting at 7 yards to be able to detect a 2" error in POI
 
If you are a right handed shooter the most likely reason you are shooting to the left is that you are pushing the pistol left with your trigger finger as you make your squeeze. All it takes is one little nudge at the end of the travel to send the muzzle and subsequently the bullet left. Maintain consistent grip on the gun as increasing the pressure as you squeeze the trigger will usually send the round low and left.

Use the middle of the first pad of your finger on the trigger. No part of the trigger finger should contact the side of the pistol as you squeeze (not pull) the trigger straight in line to the rear.

Finger should be positioned so that its like the illustration in A below while the position as shown in B which may feel more natural would be more apt to push the gun to the left.

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Pehaps your sights are not zeroed. Ask an expert pistol shot to try your gun and see where his groups are.

Shoot from a sandbag rest and see how you group with that.

In my experience, factory fixed sights are seldom zeroed to my eyes. You may have to adjust the sights.
 
It's so common we should give it a name. Almost everyone shoots left or low/left when they transition to striker fired pistols. Give it another 1/8th inch of trigger finger and rotate your grip to accomodate that and it should disappear. Please PM me with the results!
 
Personal instruction would be good, but it is typically expensive. I've had several friends shoot my pistols, and they did not experience the same problems so I know this is user error :eek:

9mmepiphany, When I say I am shooting 2" to the left, I mean if you average the distance between the center of the target (point of aim) and the actual place where my shots impact, it is about 2" to the left. I am definitely not saying that I shoot such a tight group that every shot is exactly 2" left :what:

Steve C, I have tried adjusting my grip as you describe, but my hand is fairly small and I cannot get my trigger finger off the side of my pistol without drastically rotating my hand, almost to the point where my right thumb is facing left instead of forward. Actually, now that I think about it, this could be a huge reason for my problem. I'll try to take some pictures of my grip, maybe that will help.

I really appreciate the advice guys!
 
If you are a right handed shooter the most likely reason you are shooting to the left is that you are pushing the pistol left with your trigger finger as you make your squeeze.

That was and is my problem. Also think my follow through was pushing them left.

You will figure this out shooting bullseye style. Errors due to grip tension, trigger pull direction, and just flinching, really show up one handed.

One my revolvers, I turn them clockwise a tiny bit in my hand, that combined with concentrating on pulling the trigger back straight, will bring the group to center.

If that does not work I will then drift the front or rear sight, if possible.

You can see front sight offset, which is a manufacturing defect, if you look at the muzzle end. The front sight should be exactly at 12 OC on the barrel and perpendicular.

Replica blackpowder firearms, it is a rare one where the front sight is not off center.
 
If you haven't done this already... If your hands are small enough that your thumb rolls left, away from a forward position, try using the smallest backstrap for your XDM and give it a go.


Mike
 
Will do Mike. I have been using the "Medium" backstrap for my Xdm, I had forgotten that I could even change it out.
 
Honestly, if you're not flinching, I would just adjust the sights.
That's why they adjust.
My brother has a 9mm 1911 that shoots dead on for him but about 2" high for me with the same ammo. He just grips it differently or something. I wouldn't worry about such a small difference if it were my gun, but different shooters often get different results for no apparent reason.
 
ccw_steve said:
Steve C, I have tried adjusting my grip as you describe, but my hand is fairly small and I cannot get my trigger finger off the side of my pistol without drastically rotating my hand, almost to the point where my right thumb is facing left instead of forward. Actually, now that I think about it, this could be a huge reason for my problem. I'll try to take some pictures of my grip, maybe that will help.

A small hand as you describe means that the last two segments of your trigger finger are probably reaching well ahead at a big angle to reach the trigger. That sort of thing is definetly going to make the gun push to the left if you pull back from the first joint out from the knuckle.

For sure put the smallest back strap on the gun for starters. And secondly try this little something on your trigger pull. When you pull the trigger conciously try to pull it back and TO THE RIGHT. To do this you want to pull back with your finger normally like you're doing but at the same time at your knuckle pull "up" to the right. It'll feel really odd but by working to move your trigger finger back and to curl it so it tries to move right at the same time it will counter the natural tendency to apply pressure from a short finger back and to the left in an arc of movement and pressure. The idea is that the resulting travel of the hammer will then be straight back like it should instead of being pressured to the left.

Normally this idea would be bad advice for anyone with big enough hands where the last two segments sit more directly square across when resting on the trigger. But with someone that has shorter fingers so that the last two segments are pointed strongly forward conciously moving your finger to the right is needed so that the finger segments do a sort of double arc of motion such that the contact point on the trigger is pulling straight back. It's sort of like the guy running the Bobcat excavator in my yard the other day does to do a nice level cut in the trench. He arcs the bucket down and back at the same time he booms up so that the two arcs are complimentary and the bucket moves back and level. If your finger has to reach too far forward then it is like the arm of that Bobcat and you need to "boom up" to the right so that the trigger sees only direct back pressure.

Often dry firing will show side pressure effects at the trigger as a jump in the sights to the side when the trigger breaks with the CLICK. It takes a sharp and self critical view of the sights but if you want to fix the issue it can really help. Try to hold the gun in your grip totally steady and dry fire it. If you are holding your grip steady you may even see the sight picture start to pull to the side just from the build of pressure before the click. But this assumes that you're not altering your grip by habit to compensate for this build of side pressure. At the break the gun will jump slightly in your grip and if you have side pressure on the trigger you should see the sights jump. Do it enough that you're sure it's consisitent then go try it with some ammo. The idea is obviously the sights should not jump at all. When the trigger breaks at most there should be the smallest amount of general jiggle with no sign of a consistent direction.

Mention has been made to shift your grip around the backstrap for a better reach. But doing this by too much brings its own problems where the recoil will rotate the gun in your grip. The upper hook in the backstrap really should be centered neatly in the U formed by your thumb and forefinger. If it's not there or very nearly there the gun's recoil will make it jump to the side a little. Then you end up with two issues. Trigger side pressure AND noncentered backstrap support. That really muddys up the water for trying to figure things out. Better to go correct with the centering of the gun in the U of your hand and then deal with the trigger.

What about other guns that are easier to hold for folks with smaller hands? Single stack 1911's are great for this. And since they are so customizable you can tailor fit it to your hands with thicker or thinner grips and different reach triggers.

Other off the shelf guns that I've found have smaller grips and trigger reaches are the Ruger SR9, S&W M&P and CZ75b or 85b with the thin aluminium grips often used by shooters in IPSC.

And of course being in the US where you can access lots of small guns that I'm not allowed to buy you have other options such as Makarovs and Walther PP and PPK's and a lot of other compact guns in various calibers. The XD is, after all, not a small gun. And obviously Beretta 92's, PX4's and M9's would be right out. Those are ginormous.
 
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When firing with a one handed grip, try holding your thumb perpendicular to your pistol grip. When you squeeze your trigger, there is a tendency to push left (if your are right handed), moreso if your thumb lies alongside the pistol.
 
Have you had your eyes checked? No, I'm serious. I had trouble for a long time with the rear sight not being completely clear. As I focus on the front sight the left side of the rear sight tends to blur more than the right, causing me to aim slightly right. I didn't want to adjust my sights either, so I have just trained myself to ignore that slight blur on the left and my groups centered up much nicer. Just another idea for you to noodle over. Don't let it get you down.
 
Heavy trigger-pulls make me shoot off to the left..I'm right-handed.
 
I shoot left for sure with a Glock.

Other handguns too, though some not as bad as others.

The fatter the grip the worse I do it it seems.

I adjusted my sights, groups came to center, and I quit worrying about it.

I'm definitely not going to hold a defensive handgun in some contrived position to force the gun to print some place other than where the bullets strike when I hold the gun naturally.
 
I had the same issue until someone watching me suggested I point my left thumb at the target when in support position (palm up). It sounded strange but it worked. I still do it today if my shots start drifting left.
 
Wow guys thanks for all the great feedback.

TimM, I have seen that chart before, but what does "Too little trigger finger" mean? Does that mean I don't have enough on my finger on the trigger, or I am depressing the trigger too smoothly (is there such a thing)?

For the guys who suggest adjusting my sights, here is my rationale for NOT adjusting them. I am trying to become proficient at pistol shooting in general, not just specific to my own rig. If I can get to the point where I can shoot pretty much anything straight, then that is perfect.

BCRider, I am going to the range on Friday or this weekend, and I will try what you and some of the other guys are talking about. I'm definitely switching to the smaller backstrap for comparison. As far as shifting my grip goes, when I shift the pistol doesn't feel nearly as stable because the U of my hand is not orthogonal to the back of the pistol. I will try depressing the trigger "consciously" to the right as you described.

Like I said, thanks for the good advice everyone. I'm planning on spending a lot of this weekend at the range, and hopefully I'll come back with some better feedback!
 
You can buy a really cheap laser for a gun (I think I bought one for 30 bucks at Cabela's). Dry-fire with a laser and watch what happens to the dot as you pull the trigger. Then follow all of the suggestions here about grip changes and watch how they affect the laser dot.
 
ccw steve said:
For the guys who suggest adjusting my sights, here is my rationale for NOT adjusting them. I am trying to become proficient at pistol shooting in general, not just specific to my own rig. If I can get to the point where I can shoot pretty much anything straight, then that is perfect.

The problem here is that often two people will shoot the same gun differently. It's entirely possible that I could pick up a gun that shoots dead on for you and have it not shoot dead on for me. Nothing wrong with you, me, or your gun. I've seen this with both rifles and handguns.
I agree with WEG and others who've said it makes even less sense to hold your gun in an unnatural position to shift your point of impact to where you want it. Grab the gun the way you'll grab it when you're crapping your pants and the whole world is about rain iron bricks down on your head and do what you have to do to get shoot point of aim from that position - because that's how you're going to grab it when you're trying not to panic as the charging wildebeasts and mongol horde are pounding down the door to your apartment.
If you can't just grab it comfortably and shoot it, change the grips. If you still can't get it right, buy another gun that you can shoot well. That's the best advice I can give you from my ten or so years of owning and shooting however many handguns I've had in that time.
 
TimM, I have seen that chart before, but what does "Too little trigger finger" mean? Does that mean I don't have enough on my finger on the trigger, or I am depressing the trigger too smoothly (is there such a thing)?

Yes to the bolded part. That's what the chart means. But this applies more to someone that is able to have the last two segments of their trigger finger sitting at nearly a 90 angle to the bore axis of the gun. If you're having to reach forward at a significant angle to even get your finger on the trigger then it's a moot point where the trigger sits on the pad of finger.

The cheap laser sight mentioned by 2Wheels is not a bad idea at all. It would do the same thing that the careful monitoring of your sight picture does but it would do it with a much longer baseline. So you'd REALLY see any tendency to have the gun jump to the left when the trigger breaks. Try it just with the sights alone first because you don't need to buy anything. But if you can't find a ready solution to your issues then a cheap laser that you can mount on the gun would really make the issue show up.

But if you're like me and hate picatinny rails on handguns then there's no where to mount a sight. But we're only looking for a way to magnify a jump in the gun. For this the laser doesn't need to be on the bore axis like a proper sight. A $5 presentation pointer laser duct taped or rubber banded to the gun or even shoved down the barrel with some tape for friction if it's small enough in such a way that it can't move would be just as effective.
 
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