Shooting Range Practice

[jvik]

Why are so many targets/groups reported on shot at 15 yards (unless it's an indoor range where that is the maximum length)?

I find that shooting at 25 yards does a lot more for me in terms of improving my shooting ability.

And what are the people putting 100 rounds into a silhouette 7 yards away up to? Not that I object, understand. Just curious.

 

[pacodelahoya]

Most defense shootings by handgun accur within 21 feet" I think".

Either that or 21 feet is the magic number that an assailant can cross before you can clear your gun.

 

[sacp81170a]

I don't claim to know why others practice at certain distances, but I see the need for practice at different distances to familiarize oneself with the different techniques necessary for shooting at those different distances. Shooting at 25 yards is great for improving marksmanship skills and fundamentals, but shooting at 3 yards on a timer is great for improving your draw and shoot from retention technique.

One little game I like to play with friends is to set bowling pins up at 25 yards and starting from the holster, shoot at the pin while moving towards it (this can be done safely if you separate your lanes sufficiently). First one to hit the pin from the farthest distance wins. I've found that with a little practice I can hit the pin consistently by the time I get to 20 yards (2-3 shots). You're right, shooting from longer distances improves one set of skills. Shooting from shorter distances improves other skills, if done correctly.

 

[Sunray]

"...7 yards away..." Like pacodelahoya says, that's what is considered to be the most common distance for most hand gun defensive shootings. Twenty-five yards is the standard range for formal, outdoor(50 feet indoors), bullseye, target shooting.

 

[jvik]

Defensive vs Bullseye Shooting

I confess that I'm primarily interested in bullseye shooting, but my understanding of defensive shooting is that you aim for center mass. And you practice shooting at center mass because when push comes to shove, you're going to aim at what you've practiced aiming at. So I see a lot of people shooting at silhouette, aiming at the head. Not good defensive practice, in my opinion, unless you assume the bad guy is wearing kevlar.

 

[qlajlu]

The 21 foot distance is, indeed, important. As was indicated above, that is the distance that a BG can cover, knife drawn, by the time you can "clear leather."

Also, one of the better known defensive shooting schools teaches a drill (I forget the name of the drill right now) where two shots are placed center mass and one shot to the head. That would be a reason for the concentration on head-shots. It is taught both as a method to immediately stop an attack and to insure, should your attacker be wearing body armor, that there will be one incapacitating shot at least. If your attacker is wearing body armor, two shots to the COM may not penetrate, but the foot-pounds of energy he would have to absorb will slow him long enough for a shot to the head.

The head is a smaller target and as you have said, jvik, practice improves performance and accuracy.

 

[kingpin008]

Also, one of the better known defensive shooting schools teaches a drill (I forget the name of the drill right now) where two shots are placed center mass and one shot to the head.

That's the Mozambique, or "failure to stop" drill.

 

[jvik]

OK, thanks. You've made sense of at least some of the shooting I've seen!

 

[qlajlu]

jvik, go here (Practice Drills) in Strategies and Tactics and read the suggested drills. The Mozambique Drill (Failure to Stop) is number 3.

All of these drills are important if you wish to be ready for a defensive situation. They build "muscle memory."

 

[jvik]

Ok, but how does putting 50 consecutive rounds in the general head area help?

 

[theken206]

becuase you should train as you fight as you darn sure fight as you train

 

[Alphazulu6]

Most of the ranges that I have shot at have the 15 yard, 25 yard, 50 yard target stands to hang your targets. I usually shoot on the 15 yard as its an easy walk and the stands for some reason are usually in the best shape due to people replacing the particle board often.

Also I do alot of reflexive pistol firing (CQM/CQB) and 15 yards is absolutely far enough to get the feedback I need to train on

 

[Chris Rhines]

And what are the people putting 100 rounds into a silhouette 7 yards away up to? Not that I object, understand. Just curious.

Lots of stuff you can work on at 7 yards - draws, reloads, different start positions, timing splits, strong- and weak-hand shooting, dot transition drills. It may be a bit close for shot calling or accuracy practice, but there's much more to shooting than just 25-yard slow-fire accuracy.

- Chris

 

[AK103K]

I think it mostly depends on what you want to accomplish.

If your goal is to shoot targets, a formal range with known distances and bullseye targets is fine.

For better overall practice, I find its better to practice on a range where there are no set distances and the targets have no aiming point, better yet, human picture targets, and you can shoot as you wish, not how you are told to. This goes for everything, not just pistol. This may be a challenge for a lot of ranges though, especially the drawing and moving while you shoot and the human targets part.

Airsoft is also a very good way to practice, both indoors and out, by yourself and against others. I think it actually provides better realistic practice, especially when your stuck to a target type range with lots of limits and the "sportsmen" tend to get freaked out.

 

[Black Adder LXX]

I practice double taps at that range.

 

[shooter503]

Seven yards comes from a very old FBI (or perhaps CHP) evaluation that decided that a BG can cover 21 feet while you draw and fire (I think it was actually based on standing at either end of an old police cruiser, BG at one end, officer at the other). A useful distance for general practice.

There is a reason for practice at much shorter distances. Although this does not apply directly to civilians, historically, 50% of police officers killed by firearms were within 5 feet of their killer. 50% of the remaining deaths occured in the 5 to 10 foot range.

If you want to be serious about using a firearm for self-defence you had better be darned fast, or very devious, on the concealed draw and 100% deadly within 10 feet or there abouts. An inch closer to the point of aim is worth absolutely ZERO compared with a half second faster shot.

 

[ReadyAndVigilant]

i discussed this yesteday w/my USMC buddy (fresh back from the box) while at the range. i shoot an egyptian maadi -- of course any AK type is not intented to be a sniper rifle -- usually shoot at about 25-30 yards. sometimes i get closer, sometimes farther back. as the good CPL said -- all of today's (and tomorrow's) fighting will be CQC. as he put it, the maadi "is accurate enough" and has tremendous stopping power. (wouldn't recommend the hallow points for game like possum/raccoon... what a mess, unfortunately was out of all other ammo and duty called)

we're not going to be running around trenches trying to take a head shot with bolt action rifles... you'll be moving, taking cover, covering others while they move/take cover.

 

[Blackbeard]

Seven yards comes from a very old FBI (or perhaps CHP) evaluation that decided that a BG can cover 21 feet while you draw and fire (I think it was actually based on standing at either end of an old police cruiser, BG at one end, officer at the other). A useful distance for general practice.

If he charges you, he'd be at about 3 feet; if he stays at 21 feet then he's not charging you. Seems silly to me.

 

[shooter503]

Blackbeard,
Does seem strange when you put it that way. I think I saw the info. in one of Remsburg's books. I will try to find the quote.

 

[shooter503]

This is a videotape of one of Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute (LFI) classes for police instructors. It is not of professional production quality, and the audio quality is sometimes rather poor. However, it contains some valuable information for those who own, and perhaps carry, firearms for defensive purposes.

The first half of the tape is devoted to the "Tueller Drill." The "Tueller drill" is named for Sgt. Dennis Tueller, Salt Lake City Police, who also appears in this video. In 1983, he published the article "How Close Is Too Close" in SWAT magazine (Survival Weapons and Tactics). In this article, he discussed the results of a series of tests he had run. His tests showed that, with people of various ages, weights, and heights, they could on average close a distance of 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds. That time -- 1.5 seconds -- happened to be the "drill time" taught by Jeff Cooper at GunSite for drawing a handgun and firing two aimed shots. Knowing that people who have been shot do not always -- or perhaps even often -- fall down instantly, or otherwise stop dead in their tracks, Tueller concluded that a person armed with a knife or club at the so called "intermediate range" of 21 feet was a potentially lethal threat. The "Tueller drill" is now a standard part of all of Ayoob's LFI classes

It looks as though the answer to the 21 foot question is closer than I thought.

 

[10-Ring]

Alot of times I go to the range for the social activity of it -- to meet up w/ the fellas, maybe make a new friend & punch some paper - and whether I do that at 25' or 75' really does not matter. I know I can shoot & put rounds where I want. Then when I go to get acquainted w/ a new firearm or for a class, I am more dilligent and focused and distance does matter.

 

[glockman19]

At the indoor range I practice simlulated draws at 3, 5, 7, & 12 yards. I raise the gun sight ASAP and fire. anyone IMHO can get tight groups with controled slow firing. I get groups of 3"-4" in simulated draw @ 7 yarsd and figure If I can group 50 rounds into the area of the plam of my hand with double tape I'm killing whatever I'm aiming at. I generally shoot at Dirty Bird Targets and shoot out the red and keep them in the 10 ring. human siloetes I go for head shots and center mass. I find it easdy to shoot 1-2" groups at most distances when taking time and slowly pulling the trigger. iI like to practice for real life situations.

 

[Rickstir]

I shoot at both distances at my farm range. I do shoot more at 7yards with reload drills and movement. I shoot a 92FS, a Taurus .357 nubby and a Bersa Thunder .380.

 

[Deanimator]

Why are so many targets/groups reported on shot at 15 yards (unless it's an indoor range where that is the maximum length)?

I find that shooting at 25 yards does a lot more for me in terms of improving my shooting ability.

And what are the people putting 100 rounds into a silhouette 7 yards away up to? Not that I object, understand. Just curious.

I'm a bullseye handgun competitor, so I'm used to shooting out to 50 yards for the slowfire and 25 for the timed and rapid.

That being said, most people who post here don't appear to be bullseye shooters. Instead, they're into self-defense and plinking.

You're very unlikely to be mugged or raped by somebody who expresses his intentions from 25 yards away.

Obviously, once you can hit at 50 yards, arm's length to 21 feet is going to be a lot easier.

 

[AK103K]

Obviously, once you can hit at 50 yards, arm's length to 21 feet is going to be a lot easier.

Not always.