Shooting school horror stories

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Hi, all,

I'm pondering going to one of the shooting schools, but I had a very bad experience with a motorcycle "school" once.* I would like to avoid repeating the sorts of problems I had there..

Has anyone been to a shooting school in which the instructors had safety or attitude problems? If so, please post the details here.

Thanx,
- pdmoderator


* (O.T.: The motorcycle school is run by a nationally syndicated motorcycle columnist with the initials L.G. He was a complete S.O.B.: egomaniacal, unprofessional, and IMHO unsafe. I heard later that he picks one "example" in each class; that time it was my turn. After six hundred bucks and four days, I left riding worse than I went in.

On the other hand, I'd unreservedly recommend the Keith Code school; Code and his trainers are professionals.)

 

[Wakal]

Since you are not in Hawaii, I won't comment on the incompetent POS that passes himself off as Hawaii's greatest firearms trainer.

Otherwise, my experiences have all been good. Chuck Taylor's courses left me a better shooter, and Mas Ayoob's courses left me a smarter shooter.



Alex

 

[Moondancer]

L.G.

pdmoderator: Larry Grodin?

 

[El Tejon]

Never with the instructors or skuls. Some of the students though!

The worst incidents that I've witnessed:
1. Guy took dive down stairs with carbine;
2. After missing steel plate, woman pointed pistol at sensitive parts of El Tejon who was standing behind her;
3. Guy next to El Tejon using Uncle Mike's nylon holster kept using his Glock to open the holster with his finger on trigger.

No one was hurt, thank goodness, but they all did nothing for my heart.

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Re: L.G.

Almost.
- pdmoderator

 

[M1911]

pdmoderator:

Ayoob certainly does have a healthy ego, but he and his instructors ran a safe range when I took LFI-1 and LFI-2. He runs a cold range.

I've taken Concealed Carry and Advanced Concealed Carry at Sigarms Academy. I was never concerned for my safety, even though they run a hot range. I was concerned about one student who was wearing a cross-draw IWB holster and used his support hand to assist in reholstering -- it looked to me like he was crossing his support hand with the muzzle each time he drew and reholstering. Several of the instructors had healthy egos, but nothing intolerable.

 

[Penman]

Did you have any specific instructors/schools in mind? That would make it easier to get accurate feedback. There are many great instructors who don't have the national reputations of the ones who also write books and articles. If you can provide your geographic region or areas of specific interest, that would help.

I've trained with Mas Ayoob, Chuck Taylor, John Farnam, Dennis Tueller, S&W Academy, NRA Law Enforcement Instructor's Course, and Jim Cirillo. Had great experiences in all the courses.

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Hi, Penman,

I'm in PRNJ. Right now I'm interested in bullseye pistol and/or IDPA. Not very far along in either, and prolly more serious about the bullseye at the moment.

My wife was also interested in Ayoob's kubotan course, so any info about that would help too.

Thanks for all,
- pdmoderator

 

[Preacherman]

You might want to check out this thread on TFL. It's a review I posted of Ayoob's LFI-2 and LFI-3 courses, the latter including the Kubotan course that he also offers as a separate session. IMHO, Ayoob is one of the best all-round defensive trainers out there. He states bluntly that he does NOT run "shooting courses", but rather teaches how to manage the lethal threat situation/environment. This includes all aspects: psychological, physiological, sociological, legal, etc. I rate him very highly. Sure, I did more, and learned more, handgun-specific stuff at Thunder Ranch and Chapman Academy, but neither of those schools covered the rest of the field like Ayoob does. I'd recommend LFI-1 at least, as that's where he covers most of the legal stuff. LFI-2 and -3 are "icing on the cake" as far as that's concerned.

 

[Gordon]

Horror story? Have lt. Col JC show up on his tricycle and you are trying to show off!

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Thanks, Preacherman. I'd seen your review on TFL when you first posted it. But a re-read is a good idea too.

- pdmoderator

 

[krept]

Sounds like a good one Gordon, any details?

 

[Mustang]

If you train long enough you'll see some strange stuff. The strangest thing I actually witnessed was a shooter next to me had his brand new Springfield 1911 do a triple auto-fire during a skills test. He was new to handguns and had the presence of mind to stop shooting even while the instructor was standing there with his mouth open Stuff happens.

Haven't seen any real incompetencies in instructors. You'll know one when you see one, though.

Practice, practice, practice.

 

[Weimadog]

Gordon Horror story? Have lt. Col JC show up on his tricycle and you are trying to show off!

My vote is for Gordon telling us the Col JC story!

Weimadog

 

[Gordon]

Um , I want to remember this right and to elaborate will have to ask George Worthy who was there and did all the laughing. But being a long time bulls eye shooter (20 years then) , a PPC shooter while in Fed. employ I thought I was too good for pistol 250 class. We were camping in pup tents out of Georges Trans Am 455 (with .45acp painted like factory on "shaker scoop") and generally raising hell at Gunsite with Clint as range master. I think it was 1981 as I remember Reagan was in and we were cocky. George and I were ex military officers and we knew how to pay proper respect to Col. but I told him I had been reading everything he wrote since little pulp "spot light" books in early 60's. He was less than impressed. George is ex SF captain and I left 1st lt(not SF), so I get to be brunt of all jokes. We were at range and doing presentation drills and I decided to show old man just how fast I could slap leather when he drove up on tricycle . Apparently (I was more excited then when I was in combat) I pulled the piece and was firing before I had raised to eye level, ok I shot from hip! Thats all Cooper had to see on his range . He brought show to a stop and dressed my *** down worse than anything I had endured in service. He really ranted, threatened to kick my butt off property then and there. I hung my head and said yes sir, no sir ect. When we resumed after this disaster I went into slow motion and fumbled my gun for rest of day. George and I drank some that night and he got on my case for embarressing him ect. Well I graduated barely but went back for 350 and 499 in the next 2 years and everything was all better. Hows that for horror?

 

[Penman]

pdmoderator,
Fr. Frog used to live in PRNJ, and was active in the old NJ combat Pistol League. You might drop him a line to ask for suggestions for training in the area:

http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/froghome.htm

His site also has some great information on the Scout Rifle. I think any of Ayoob's classes would have quality material and staffing. If you can travel, Mas will be teaching at Marty Haye's facility in Washington State in June. That would be a great chance to get to know both of them, in the middle of some beautiful country. Good Luck!

 

[Still Learning]

Gordon is the clear winner of the horror story contest to this point. I can sympathize to some degree. I took my IPSC style shooting to a John Farnam course and was constantly embarrassed by my difficulty in overcoming old habits such as drawing without moving, dropping a mag before having fresh one ready to insert, etc. Passed the course--barely.

 

[i-SHOT]

Gordon: Oh, man. That was a good horror story Thanks.

pdmoderator:

Dude, I used to live in the City and I could never find a decent shooting school of any sort other that Ayoob's up North or the SIG Academy.

For bulleye per say, I can't think of anyone but the closest possible location where you can find a variety of different types of training would possibly be David di Fabio's new range in Marcus Hook, PA (right outside Philly). He'll probably have the same guest instructors teaching like Hackathorn, Jeff Gonzales, Andy Stanford, Suarez, Farnam and Walt Rauch. I wouldn't be surprise if he invites Mas Ayoob down to this year. So check them out:

http://www.responsibleshooter.com/