Shooting Smaller Pistols Well

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DMW1116

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Today I repeated a test I did about a year ago with my M&P9 and M&P Shield. I shot a full size silhouette target at 25 yards off-hand. I have the old target to compare and I notice 2 things.

First, the latest target is much improved over the last one. The last one looked like I made a couple of quick shots with a shotgun and 00 buckshot at 50 yards. This time the shots were at least in the area I was aiming.

Second, the groups from the M&P9 were noticeably better than the ones from the Shield. They were centered, while the Shield printed a little to the right, and the group (of 9 shots) was about half the size.

Is this a function of smaller guns being more difficult to shoot well? Admittedly I've been shooting the M&P9 a fair bit more lately, but I've had the Shield about a year longer and shot it regularly before the M&P9 was purchased. I've adjusted the sights on the Shield, but I think the off center group is mostly me and how I shoot this pistol. Is there a way to fix this, or should I start looking for a replacement on the off chance I could shoot a different brand of similar size better?
 
I was more accurate with Shield 9mm than full size M&P 9 . I sold the M&P 9 and bough a M&P 2.0 Long Slide that is a great improvement. I hit low left with Shield for a long time and eventually got better with practice , Shield is accurate with 124gr and best with 124gr +P
 
My hands are bigger than average and small handguns take getting used to. I have both the Shield and the M&P 9. To my surprise it didn't take long (about three sessions) to get decent accuracy at 10 to 15 yards. S&W did a good job to make such small pistols as ergonomic as they are. Since these are strictly carry guns I rarely shoot beyond 15 yards. I'm more concerned with reliability and accuracy at SD distances. My wife is tiny and handles them better than me.

If I shoot 9mm at 25 yards or more, I bring out the CZ75b.

Jeff
 
While I understand the j tended use of the Shield I would prefer a group measured in inches rather than feet, even at 25 yards.

So the tendency to hit right is fixable with practice (I’m a lefty so tend to pull shots right). I’ll have to do some more dedicated practice with the Shield. I’m loading some 9mm now so I should have some ammo to practice. It’s a downloaded recipe that works very well in the M&P9 but has not been tried in the Shield.

My 9s seem to generally be more accurate with heavier bullets. I think it might be more lower velocity than strictly heavier projectiles. The downloaded recipe is very accurate and my Shield does well with 147 grain XTPs. Oddly it also does slightly better with 90 grain Lehigh Xtreme Defenders.
 
DMW1116 said:
I shot a full size silhouette target at 25 yards off-hand.
Click to expand...
Holding in the black of the target makes it very hard to see the signts, for me.

Try a black Bullseye target & hold at 6 o'clock, in the white of the target, may help? Nra B-8C 25 yard timed & rapid target center. My Tarus G3C at 25 yards does 8" firing 20 shots.

Like said-
Kleanbore said:
If it is for defensive carry, the desired performance requires combat accuracy, delivered with a balance of speed and precision. Forget group size
Click to expand...
 
Kleanbore said:
If it is for defensive carry, the desired performance requires combat accuracy, delivered with a balance of speed and precision. Forget group size.
Click to expand...
This.... To many people buy defensive guns and want target/competition proformence.

One of the rare times that I agree with Kleanbore.
 
I get best accuracy out of my Shield with heavier bullets too. The 124gr bullets hit closest to point of aim. I have had a Shield since 2012. Took a while to Lear how to shoot it well. The narrow grip frame makes it want to rock left/right when pulling the trigger. You need A firmer grip on it than what you can get away with on a fatter gripped gun
 
DMW1116 said:
Is this a function of smaller guns being more difficult to shoot well?
Click to expand...

Personally, I do believe that smaller guns are more difficult to shoot. When you consider that your sight radius is smaller the caliber of a round and the size of the gun meant to handle a rimfire or 380 , the recoil will be snappy. The only thing that will help with the accuracy is a total submerging and commitment and shooting that particular firearm.

I shoot twice a week and one day I went to shoot the 642 airweight my wife bought against my wishes. I carry a 686 with full .357 loads so I am not squimish when it comes to recoil. I got up to the 3 yard line and fired all 5 shots. Recoil was bad and I missed all 5 shot at the 3 yard line. I've shot a NAA at 10 yards and will group 5 shots the size of my fist with 22lr. I shoot 22 magnum out of the same pistol and the group shot looks like a shotgun pattern. So I do believe smaller handgun with a large caliber is more difficult to shoot.
 
@ms6852 pretty well sums it up, in my opinion. I believe that sight radius doesn't quite get the attention it deserves, and that once we get into sub 4" barrels we make hitting much harder for ourselves. Combined with the snappy recoil of a smaller pistol, anything better than "combat" accuracy requires significant effort.
 
ms6852 said:
Personally, I do believe that smaller guns are more difficult to shoot. When you consider that your sight radius is smaller the caliber of a round and the size of the gun meant to handle a rimfire or 380 , the recoil will be snappy. The only thing that will help with the accuracy is a total submerging and commitment and shooting that particular firearm.
Click to expand...

That’s what I was afraid of but I am preparing to do that. I’ve reached a degree of proficiency with my M&P9 that I think I can focus on the Shield a lot more. I have some 147 grain Berrys that will hopefully mimic my 147 grain XTPs.
 
I am one of those unusual types that actually shoot smaller, shorter-barrel, handguns more accurately than those larger and longer. Always have. I understand the mechanism that says that should not be the case. But it is for me. I also understand the concept of combat accuracy, but I am not truly satisfied with even a pocket pistol if I can't make head-shots with it at 75 feet.

BOARHUNTER
 
I think a lot of it depends on the gun and what you do in regular "realistic" practice with it. The more time and effort you put in, the better off youre going to be. I get the impression from what Ive seen, most who carry the smaller guns, dont put much time in shooting them, let alone at least a bit realistically.

Its one thing to stand there and try and deliberately shoot groups and base your skills on that, vs drawing and shooting the gun, as youll likely have to use it, from how you carry it, under a little stress.

Up close is quick and ugly and mostly while moving and not using sights, farther off is slower and more deliberate and likely using the sights in some fashion, assuming the gun has a decent set. If it doesnt, how far can you shoot it and get reasonable repetitive hits?

Ive used all sorts of "smaller" guns over the years as second or backup guns. Revolvers and autos, but mostly autos, as I thought they were smaller and easier to hide. Took me a little while to figure out that the trade off in size wasnt worth it and I was just hindering myself. Live and learn. :)

These days, I dont go smaller than a Glock 26. They are comfortable in the hand, easy to get a hold of quickly, have realistic sights, shoot like a full sized gun and at about the same distances, carry a reasonable amount of ammo, and will take full sized mags. They will realistically shoot well at 25 yards and even further. Size-wise, they arent much bigger than a lot of the smaller guns many carry, and youve actually got a gun to work with.

Although I dont carry a revolver much these days, as small as Id go with them are my 642's and 2" K frames. I still shoot both a couple of times a month, and while the K frames are much more pleasant and a bit easier to shoot well with, the 642's really arent bad as shooters, but just arent as pleasant to shoot for any length of time.

As with anything, you get out of it what you put in and learn in doing so.
 
DMW1116 said:
Today I repeated a test I did about a year ago with my M&P9 and M&P Shield. I shot a full size silhouette target at 25 yards off-hand. I have the old target to compare and I notice 2 things.

First, the latest target is much improved over the last one. The last one looked like I made a couple of quick shots with a shotgun and 00 buckshot at 50 yards. This time the shots were at least in the area I was aiming.

Second, the groups from the M&P9 were noticeably better than the ones from the Shield. They were centered, while the Shield printed a little to the right, and the group (of 9 shots) was about half the size.

Is this a function of smaller guns being more difficult to shoot well? Admittedly I've been shooting the M&P9 a fair bit more lately, but I've had the Shield about a year longer and shot it regularly before the M&P9 was purchased. I've adjusted the sights on the Shield, but I think the off center group is mostly me and how I shoot this pistol. Is there a way to fix this, or should I start looking for a replacement on the off chance I could shoot a different brand of similar size better?
Click to expand...
Nothing going on here that a little practice won't fix. Seriously. Shoot the Shield more. You'll figure it out.
 
I generally have been putting a fair bit of effort into rifles lately. Today was a pistol only day at the range. Some 10 meter air pistol, 50 ft bullseye 22 and finally the 9s at 25 yards on a much bigger target. I’ll start some dry firing tomorrow with the Shield. The range is closed on Sundays.
 
Boarhunter said:
I am one of those unusual types that actually shoot smaller, shorter-barrel, handguns more accurately than those larger and longer. Always have. I understand the mechanism that says that should not be the case. But it is for me. I also understand the concept of combat accuracy, but I am not truly satisfied with even a pocket pistol if I can't make head-shots with it at 75 feet.

BOARHUNTER
Click to expand...
You are very lucky, seems that you happen to be a natural pointer. Me on the other hand I point at a barn and am still off by a couple of feet.
 
How well I shoot a gun depends on the specific trigger and gun. I can shoot some smaller guns better than larger guns and some larger guns better than smaller guns.
 
My lcpII is accurate w everything I’ve run through it. I’m talking pie plate accuracy from 5-15 yards. Smallest pistol I currently own and carry.
 
So many variables that it’s difficult to say exactly why groups are different with any two guns. Sights, weight, dimensions, trigger weight, recoil, ammo, etc. If you have a variety of handguns you might be able to notice some trends to see which variables have the most effect.
 
I have large hands and I have found that when I am shooting my LCPII, the groups tend to go off to the left. Took my a while to realize that my hand is so wrapped around the grip that my trigger finger was pulling the gun to the left when I fired. My normal for pulling the trigger is using the first joint of my index finger. With the smaller gun, the second joint is engaged, which pulled the trigger toward my knuckle. Took some adjustment, but I can hit minute of bad guy at 10 yards.
 
DMW1116 said:
First, the latest target is much improved over the last one. The last one looked like I made a couple of quick shots with a shotgun and 00 buckshot at 50 yards. This time the shots were at least in the area I was aiming.

Second, the groups from the M&P9 were noticeably better than the ones from the Shield. They were centered, while the Shield printed a little to the right, and the group (of 9 shots) was about half the size. Is this a function of smaller guns being more difficult to shoot well?
Click to expand...
I usually check out guns in person and dry fire while watching the front sight before buying (I check out different samples and buy one that doesn't move or minimally move the front sight). But when I bought my Shield 9mm, I had to order online.

Well, when the striker released, the front sight jumped/jerked quite a bit moving point-of-impact away from point-of-aim. After over a thousand dry fires, trigger smoothed out and front sight moved minimally. After several hundred rounds fired, front sight moved less and I can now demo double tap headshots at 7-10 yards fast when I am teaching people point shooting.

So check to see how much your front sight moves when you dry fire and if it does, dry fire until it doesn't and your POI should be at/close to POA.

kidneyboy said:
Nothing going on here that a little practice won't fix. Seriously. Shoot the Shield more. You'll figure it out.
Click to expand...
derek45 said:
Keep practicing
Click to expand...
Very good advise that's pertinent especially for shooting compact/subcompacts more accurately.

Check out this thread on trigger control to help print POI at POA fast - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11245640
 
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