Shooting Uphill/downhill

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SemperFi83

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I am going hunting in Tennessee next week, pretty hilly. Been a while and I can never remember...I know that there is a rule of thumb if, for instance, you are shooting downhill you should aim high (or maybe its low?)... and that's the problem, I don't remember which . Can some one help here?

Thanks!:confused:
 
gravitational pull effects are decreased on severe uphill or downhill angles, so the solution for both is to aim slightly low. But the thing is it takes a very steep angle to make much difference in POI. On most shots you never need to compensate out of the kill zone, simply hold a bit low in the kill zone from what you normally would.

edited for a screw-up...
 
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An interesting discussion of this problem can be found @:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27557&highlight=slope+doper

Unless the sniper takes corrective action, bullet impact will be above the point of aim. How high the bullet hits is determined by the range and angle to the target (Table 3-3). The amount of elevation change applied to the telescope of the rifle for angle firing is known as slope dope.

Sure glad it's relatively flat where I hunt!:)

Regards,
hps
 
"gravitational pull effects are decreased on severe uphill or downhill angles."

Not so. Gravitational pull remains unchanged.

To understand what is happening, picture a right triangle. Actual path to the target is along the hypotenuse. However, gravity affects the bullet as if it were traveling along the adjacent leg. Since the adjacent leg is shorter, bullet will hit high. The effect is the same whether you are shooting uphill or downhill.



Scott
 
I sight in for 2" high at 100 yards and dead on at 200. For Bambi in the range of 75 to 125 yards, what's a couple of inches on a chest shot?

So: I'm good to go on flat land. If I'm shooting vertically, I'm off the usual 2" at 100. Since the trajectory isn't really affected by gravity in this case, I'd be 4" "high" at 200. But that's an angle of 90 degrees off the horizontal, which is really not very likely. :)

If you play with the trigonometry, you find that until you're past 30 degrees of rise or fall, it doesn't make any practical difference when the range is inside of 200 yards.

Now, when you get out around 300 or 400 yards and the angle is getting toward 45 degrees or so, you do need to start thinking about holding low. Two or three inches below your "normal" hold for those distances. Roughly.

Art
 
I'll try:
Gravity works on the bullets trajectory only the distance that the bullet travels across the earths surface. Up hill or down hill.
For example, a 625 yard shot , down a 45- 50 degree slope will be about 500 yards as to the gravitional pull/effect on the bullet or the trajectory charts are concerned. In other words the bullet only traveled 500 yards across the earth, not 625 yards line of sight distance.
 
Well, Art, I'll durn sure defer to you. You've seen where I hunt and I've seen where you hunt.

Folks, you'd probably have to go to the moon to find rougher terrain that Art hunts in.
 
Coincidently, my brother is elk huntin' in southwestern Colorado this week, hopefully with the the following "dope" taped to his stock. After getting some 165 grain Nosler Partitions loaded, tweaked and chronoed in two '06s, the following is a cut and paste from an e-mail I sent him a few weeks ago.

He sent me a "thank you" e-mail for being so "precise". And then requested that I help him figure out a way to get my shooting bench hauled up and strapped onto the side of a mountain ... ;)

-------

Using Sierra software, general trajectories of all 3 loads above, (assuming 2600 fps due to colder weather) and zero at 200 yards (sight-in 2" high at 100 yards).

Flat shot 25 degree angle 45 degree angle 60 degree angle

200 0

250 - 4

300 - 9 - 8 - 6 - 4

350 - 18 - 16 - 12 - 8

400 - 26 - 24 - 19 - 13

At first two distances, differences due to angles is neglible. The angle does not matter, whether up or down. The "angle difference" numbers above should not be too far off for those shooting 7mm, 300 Win mags, etc. The bottom line is, at longer ranges and steeper angles, bullets do not drop as much as if shooting flat. Good luck getting this across to guys in Colorado cabin.

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Edited to add: Well, it looks like the columns did not line up well from my cut and paste, but hopefully the table can be followed. Example: At 350 yards and 45 degree angle, bullet drop is 12" as opposed to 18" for flatlanders.
 
:scrutiny:

Just to be painfully technical, the horizontal distance is irrelevant to the discussion. If you are reading for entertainment, you may want to stop here.

Please bear with me as I explain without the benefit of the necessary diagrams and way too much time elapsed since high school physics and engineering school.

The major error made was stating that the horizontal distance to the target affects the bullet’s drop. In fact, the horizontal distance is irrelevant. For our purposes, keeping miscellaneous variables such as atmospheric conditions, etc. equal, there is only one force causing bullets to drop – gravity. The only other variable in amount of drop is the time that gravity has to act upon the bullet in flight, i.e., time of flight (TOF). That is because gravity is a vector, acting vertically downward with an acceleration of about 32.2 feet per second per second.

Here is an example. Suppose a pair of shots, both equal distances from the muzzle, say 100 yards. The first is a perfectly horizontal shot. The second is at the mathematically convenient angle of 45 degrees upward (could be downward as well) from horizontal. The horizontal distance of the second shot is less than the first, measuring only 70.7 yards, but this is irrelevant.

Now here is where one must grasp the physics. Both shots are 100 yard shots – the first is a horizontal 100 yards, and the second is 100 yards at an angle of 45 degrees, but still 100 yards from muzzle to target. Since both bullets travel 100 yards at the same average velocity, the times of flight of both shots are equal. Since the TOF are equal for both shots, gravity has an equal time to act upon both bullets, meaning the drop must be the same, right?

Wrong. Bear with me.

While it is true that gravity has the same time to act upon both bullets, the acceleration of gravity does not act equally on them relevant to the direction of drop. Remember, gravity is a vector. In this example, the bullet is a vector also. Vectors have both a magnitude (in the case of gravity, an acceleration of 32 fps/s) and a direction (vertically downward). Vector mechanics involves both the angles and the magnitudes of the involved vectors.

Now back to the horizontal bullet fired in shot one. By definition, horizontal is perpendicular to gravity. Therefore, gravity acts in a downward direction that happens to be perpendicular to the original path of this particular bullet. Therefore, the drop of the bullet is related directly to the TOF and the effect of the full magnitude of gravity (32 fps/s) because gravity in this case acts in exactly the same direction as drop. Simple concept; everybody understands this.

For the bullet fired in shot two it gets more complicated. You see that bullet has a vector direction of 45 degrees to horizontal, and to vertical. While gravity still acts vertically upon the bullet, the bullet is not traveling horizontally or perpendicular to gravity, so gravity no longer acts perpendicularly to the original path of the bullet, but at the 45 degree angle. (This is easier with a diagram.) In other words, gravity pulls the bullet vertically downward, but vertically downward in this case is not the same as drop. Drop, as I understand the definition, is the amount the bullet falls perpendicularly (but not necessarily vertically) away from the line of the original path (barrel). Since the barrel in this case is not horizontal, drop is not vertical.

Now let’s do the math. Picture shot two, upward at an angle of 45 degrees from horizontal, with a muzzle-to-target distance of 100 yards.
Gravity is acting at an angle of 45 degrees from the path of the bullet, rather than perpendicular to it. The component of gravity that is acting in the direction of drop, or perpendicular to the path of the bullet, is described by the equation: (Gravity) x (sine 45 degrees). You will notice that due to the angle this amount is only 0.707 times the horizontal shot’s gravity effect, or about 23 fps/s. The other component of gravity is acting perpendicularly to the first. It acts exactly parallel, but opposite (for an uphill shot) in direction to the path of the bullet and the magnitude is described by the equation: (Gravity) x (cosine 45 degrees). This component can be legitimately ignored as insignificant relative to the velocity and TOF of the bullet.

Just for fun, let’s consider a third shot. Vertical. Up or down, I don’t care. There is zero drop – the bullet stays on its original path with no drop from gravity, because all of gravity is acting exactly parallel to the path of the bullet, and not at any angle to pull the bullet off that path.

In summary, the drop depends upon TOF and angle of bullet path from vertical (gravity). For two equidistant shots with the same load, the TOF are equal, leaving only the different angles to determine the difference in drop.

I hope this has clarified rather than confused. :)
 
45crittergitter is correct with his representation of vector analysis, however, the net result of the gravity vector reduced to .707 of the horizontal creates the same net effect on the bullet drop as the tigonometric analysis. The 45 degree angle shot at 100 yards visual is actually the same as a 70.7 yard shot at horizontal, so hold for 70.7 yards, either uphill or downhill.
 
Yooper said:
45crittergitter is correct with his representation of vector analysis, however, the net result of the gravity vector reduced to .707 of the horizontal creates the same net effect on the bullet drop as the tigonometric analysis. The 45 degree angle shot at 100 yards visual is actually the same as a 70.7 yard shot at horizontal, so hold for 70.7 yards, either uphill or downhill.
It's more than a technicality. The horizontal distance method works well when the vertical angle doesn't get too steep--it breaks down when shooting at very steep angles--either up or down. That is to say when the horizontal distance gets very small. If you need to take a shot like that and don't understand the vectors you're going to be very confused about where the bullet is going.

That might seem nitpicky, but it's not for folks who hunt with dogs and shoot treed animals or squirrel hunters (particularly airgunners) who often need to shoot nearly straight up.
 
The greater the distance, the more difference it makes. 30 degrees up or down is .866 times the visual distance, 60 degrees up or down is half the distance. For all practical purposes, a rifle with a point blank range of 250-300 yards will not benefit much for the allowance. However, a rifle sighted for 100 yards on a 200 yard uphill or downhill shot should be held dead on and not held over.
 
Ok...

using the horizontal distance method, tell me where should I aim to make an 85 degree shot with a 25yard slant range (24.9 yards up and 2.2 yards horizontal).
 
John, me, I'd just point it and pull. (High-power rifle with scope. It's what I mostly use.) I zero at 25 yards, which is usually close to 2" high at 100. Roughly. Sure, I fine tune, but I'm still gonna be close to dead-on at 25.

Within 25 yards, gravity hasn't had a chance, yet, to do its thing. :)

Art
 
2.2 yards horizontal is a 2.2 yard shot. The bullet will not have crossed the line of sight for either scoped or iron sights. You will hit below your line of sight by the distance of the height of the sights above the bore.
 
Yooper,

I can tell you from experience that your answer is incorrect--and that's exactly what I was trying to point out. Art's answer is much closer to the right answer--close enough that it's not worth quibbling about.
 
Damn,you folks are good. I would love to learn some of this in a real shooting situation.
I watched the Ultimate Sniper and it had this in a short section of the tape,need to borrow the tape and watch it agin.
thanks for the good info. :eek:
 
JohnKSa,

You're correct, the trig analysis omits the gravity vector from the equation. Shooting uphill, gravity increases the rate of deceleration, shooting downhill decreases the rate of deceleration, and the visual distance correlates to time of flight, the time gravity has to affect the bullet.
 
And this all started with "rule of thumb"! :)

The reason I harped on the distance is the time factor. Out to around 100 yards, you're only talking about 1/10th of a seond.

The distance a bullet drops due to gravity comes from d = 1/2 x a x t-squared. a = 32.16; t = 0.1. The drop in 100 yards is 0.16 feet. Call it two inches. That's why I generally sight in for two inches high at 100 yards; gravity puts the bullet dead on at 200 yards.

Bambi's kill zone for a side shot on the chest is what, six or eight inches? I'm talking quick drop, not "bleed out somewhere in the neighborhood".

And that's why at close range and most-likely angles my rule of thumb is "Don't do nuthin'."

:), Art
 
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