shot loads?

[Busyhands94]

i have been a bit curious about shot loads lately, and i have been wanting to try a couple for fun and see if they are worth taking rabbit hunting. however shot out of a rifled barrel tends to spread too quickly and gets a big hole in the pattern. the question is can i get a decently effective pattern with shot out of a rifled barrel and how can i load it to do that? i was thinking about getting some some plastic sabots to use as shot cups so i won't lead the bore, and i have been considering using some sort of wadding like paper underneath the shot or something to that effect. any advice would be appreciated!

i am also thinking about getting a used (or low cost) inline, and then lining the barrel so it's a muzzleloading .410 shotgun. and with that lining i can completely convert it, by that i mean i could make a new stock so it points like a shotgun and the length of pull is right for me, then maybe remove the rear sight, get rid of the front sight and solder a bead on there instead as well as a few adjustments. and with that smoothbore i could probably shoot patched balls too if i want, or something like that. i am still messing with the idea, i am not sure i want to do that yet because i will be 18 in march and i can just buy a used break action shotgun and make blackpowder shells for it.

Sincerely, Levi

 

[DHunter]

You do know they make black powder shotguns right?

 

[Busyhands94]

i know about BP shotguns, but they are a bit out of my price range. i might get one someday, but turkey season is pretty soon. i don't have the money for a genuine blackpowder shotgun so i am exploring this possibility.

 

[mykeal]

I know of no scheme for loading a rifled barrel with shot that produces a usable pattern beyond about 10 yards.

Muzzleloading shotguns load thus: powder, then an overpowder card, a fiber wad, shot and finally an overshot card. In other words, they essentially build a shotshell in the barrel. But of course they're smoothbores. You need to prevent the shot column from following the rifling, which suggests a shot cup that's loose enough in the bore to not engage the rifling and will also separate from the shot once it's expelled. Alas, I don't know how to do that.

 

[Busyhands94]

i will look into finding a shot cup that will be the right diameter to keep from hugging the bore. i am starting to think about paper shot cups, that might actually work if i made some tubes just right, somehow plugged one end than cut the tube four times down the sides. i could possibly get good results with that. next time i am at the range i will be sure to test that out with buck and birdshot to see if i can get a decent pattern. i imagine i should start at 45 or 50 grains and a small amount of shot. should i put something under the shot cup to keep the pressure under the shot cup? i have heard of mountain men putting dried grass, leaves, tobacco, and stuff like that under the ball to form a seal, i am just worried that sort of thing might get compressed and engage the rifling and transfer that spin to the shot cup.

 

[72coupe]

I think Green Mountain makes a replacement shotgun barrel for just about every muzzle loading rifke.

 

[Dr.Doug]

Keep your eyes open for a proper smoothbore or a smooth barrel like (72 coupe suggested) and save yourself a lot of grief. Even if you use a shot cup the payload will be spinning when it leaves a rifled bore- you'll still get the doughnut hole in your pattern.

Muzzleloading shotguns can be spendy, but can be cheap, too. I picked up an unmarked Northwest Trade gun (smoothbore flintlock, 14 gauge) for $150 recently. Nice old gun, but no collector value without a name. Can't wait to try it on doves.

 

[arcticap]

There were smooth rifle clones of some inexpensive rifle models that were typically made in .50 and .54.
The TC .56 Renegade is another smooth rifle that can be found for around $200.
The barrel of an inexpensive used gun can be reamed out and made into a smooth bore, and a jug choke can be honed into the bore for about $60 so that it will be able to shoot tighter patterns.

 

[Lunie]

Void where prohibited. See Store for details. Entries must be submitted by...

Levi,

I'm surprised you haven't tried firing shot out of your '58 NMA.

I tried several loads from 15 to 25 grains of powder, and with a corresponding amount of shot to fill the chamber before ramming. (My first load was only 15gr of 3F topped with ~20gr of shot, measured by volume.)

Powder first, then a Lubed Felt Wad, then 7-1/2 shot (courtesy of some "pulled down" 12 gauge target loads), topped with one more LFW.

Measured the shot by volume, same as I was doing with the powder. ~25 gr or so. Rammed down the first LFW, poured shot, rammed again. Added top wad and rammed one last time.

Pattern? Out of a '60 Colt .44, at 5 paces, it printed a surprisingly uniform pattern. Ironically, my distance must have been about right. Only a few pellets fell outside the shoulders of the B27 silhouette.

Recoil was imaginary.

It was nifty. Maybe not useful for much of anything... Oh well.

***DISCLAIMER***
I don't live in California. I live in a State that the Brady Campaign consistently gives a very "poor" score to. I take that as a great compliment. I have no idea about the legality of doing as such wherever it is that you are standing.

 

[Montenegrin]

Better buy a used barrel,and make it to smoothbore,or buy smoothbore barrel if it's available.Shot can damage riflings and cause round ball to be innacurate.

 

[Lunie]

Better buy a used barrel,and make it to smoothbore,or buy smoothbore barrel if it's available.Shot can damage riflings and cause round ball to be innacurate.

Lead shot can damage rifling? I'd have to see that to believe it.

Steel shot, on the other hand...

 

[Montenegrin]

You don't have to,because you did not wasted 150 $ for new flintlock rifle barrel

 

[Jaymo]

The only shot loads I've made up were for my Howdah pistol and it's a 20 gauge smoothbore. I made some paper cartridges without powder ad filled them with shot. I poured the powder down the barrel and rammed the shot cartridge down on top. Repeated for the other barrel and fired.
Fun, but it's designed for shot anyway.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well you won't get a shot cup or paper wad that won't torque the shot column, thus causing the donut effect. The inertia of the projectile will cause a shot cup or paper tube to flex outward when the discharge begins, and engage the rifling. No, not nearly as much as a patched round ball or a sabot or minnie, but enough torque to cause enough of a problem that the idea has never caught on.

In fact torque on the shot column is one theory as to why a so called "straight rifled" or grooved barrel was popular, as it threw a patched round ball well enough, and gave a good shot pattern to boot. Funny how Remington introduced a full turkey screw in choke, with straight grooves, a few years ago. What was old is new again.

This is also why you will find shotguns with screw in chokes that will spin a sabot slug as it exits the muzzle to get a bit better accuracy than a plain smooth barrel, but you don't find loads specifically made to shoot shot through a fully rifled shotgun barrel, in modern ammo.

LD

 

[Busyhands94]

i did some testing of shot at the range the other day, i got a surprisingly decent pattern. didn't put enough shot in though. i used the shot from half a .410 shell i found. i accidentally spilled the other half of the shot. i really need to get more shot. i picked up a bunch of .410 empty shells and got an idea. i ground the rim off the shell, cut four slats in the sides of the shell and tested the fit in my barrel. it is just loose enough that it won't grip the rifling. i could put a newspaper wad under that, and a little lube to keep it from transferring spin to the shot cup. the brass shouldn't be a problem i think, if anything it will be a bearing surface and will slip off the rifling. i think i discovered a way to make shot cups that will work for this. i tested the fit with some .450 revolver conical bullets, they seemed to fit just fine in there and went in without that much of a problem. i may have just discovered a way to make sabots. i may get an inline someday, but i don't like buying stuff when i can make it. that's good. one less thing.

 

[scrat]

Busy hands. .410 and 45 ok here is the low down on both. shooting 45 colt. Awesome. Shooting .410 shotgun even more awesome. Shooting .410 out of a rifled barrel. not cool if you are using standard shot gun rounds. As the plastic wad will spin in the barrel with the rifling. the shot will also spiral spin and will just be a waist and pointless. However if you hand load them the old way using shot cards. an over the powder card a felt wad and then pour shot then an over the shot card. Well the spiral rotation is almost non existant and then you have an effective shotgun/45colt. I have a NEF .410 shotgun. i bought it about i dont know 20 something years ago. Well about 6 months ago i was looking through the paperwork on my guns. DAM in the owners manual i could have sent the shotgun in spent $100 and they would have set it up with a .45 colt barrel as well as the .410. i have the old break down action with a single screw on the bottom. All i would have had to do was remove the bottom screw uncock the barrel, remove then replace with a .45 colt. Of course it would have still been a single shot. I wish i would have read that paperwork in more detail years ago. I checked on it now and well lets just say its not worth it in my case but still very doable in yours.

 

[Busyhands94]

so card wads are the way to go? I'll be sure to do a shot patterning video next time I'm out there. i want to figure out the right load so i could go duck hunting this year. i think loading a little heavy on the shot would help tremendously. i can't use steel shot in my barrel, it will screw it up. i figure since the de-rimmed and cut .410 shot shell is going to work well. unlike the shot cup going through the rifled bore of a Taurus Judge or other .45 Long colt gun, this will not engage the rifling. i have used hard lead for Minnie balls before i knew better and they keyholed, no spin is good. that was a .500 Minnie ball, this is a shot cup that's a bit smaller than that, it shouldn't engage the rifling if i do this right. and a card behind it should keep some of the gasses from escaping around the shot cup. as i said i used a similar load, my problem is i didn't use that much shot, only about 1/4 ounce or so. but i got a few of them on the 12X12 wooden block and they went about 1/2 an inch in there. so they did pattern on the wood, they did get enough to kill a rabbit or something, that was with a small amount. i could do better than that! I'll try my homemade shot cups, some card wads, and anything i can think of before the next range trip. i need to focus on buying or making some lead shot though, I can't do it without stuffing shot down the muzzle. i think i want to make some buckshot though, I'll try and make some kind of mold for those today. i love buckshot! it's one of my favorite things to shoot with a shotgun!

 

[mykeal]

an over the powder card a felt wad and then pour shot then an over the shot card

That's the standard load in a smoothbore. I've never known anyone who made that work beyond 10 yards in a rifled bore. The shot column will donut by 10 yards.