Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement..

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Nightcrawler

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You hear this phrase repeated over and over here.

What'll happen is you'll have a 9mm vs. .45 type debate, with .40 Fans (all three of them) keeping quiet and the 10mm folks quietly snickering in the corner, and then the wiser High Roaders will step in and say "9mm vs. .45 is silly, it's all about shot placement".

They indeed have a point. A missed shot means nothing, no matter how powerful it was.

HOWEVER...I'm going to stir the pot a bit, and this is something I'm genuinely curious about.

I notice that many people that have said this don't carry 9mms, even they're plenty accurate, offer much capacity, etc. People that like .45 often just like the 1911, but still.

People buy .40 guns over 9mm because .40 is more powerful, even though 9mm is cheaper to shoot with and with proper shot placement will be just as effective.

And then there are the 10mm folks...yeah....

So....if shot placement is really the be-all and end-all, why isn't everyone packing a 9mm or a .38? Why bother with .357s, or +P ammo in general? Why the endless worrying about bullet weights and types and expansion and energy deposit?

Now personally, I my take is that shot placement is important, but that shot should make the biggest hole possible, and preferably leave a bigger one on the way out. I like big, heavy bullets moving fast.

So what's the story? How important IS shot placement vs. bullet type, power, velocity, expansion, etc.?
 
Everything is important.

However, humans are not robots. We do not all do best with the same gun or the same ammo or the same anything.

I see many people as being very into the hardware when really, I think it is least important. Good hardware may inspire you to shoot more and improve your software, it may make you feel more confident, it may even work better - but when the flag goes up, its all about mindset and preparation.

When I get my TX CHL, I will carry a full size 1911 or a S&W snub - one or the other and feel very well armed.

Every situation, every bad guy, every person is different. Any gun can jam, they unexpected will always happen, things will always go wrong.

The most important thing is to remember that your mind is the weapon - if you think your gun is your weapon, you will probably lose. The gun is the tool but man fights with his mind. I think if you can internalize that, you will probably come up the winner most of the time.
 
:D Couldn't wait to see if that new spoon would stir a pot huh? :D

First off I never cared for or warmed up to the .40 , still don't that's just me, and Ill get back to this later.

Shot placement is very important-Granted-BUT one has to PLACE the shot in the first place.. So I determine for me what will allow me to place my shots accurately, quickly everytime. . You with me so far?

Now I learned a little bit about gun fit in my youth, shooting rifle competition as a kid ( NRA) hunting, and Handguns in impromtu competitions, hunting, plinking...etc. I was also taught to shoot without any sights. I figured out real quick some guns I shot better than others. Instructors , mentors heard the "click" of the light bulb in my brain. THEN tired of missing with a shotgun "oh hell you can't miss with a shotgun" I learned just how much gun fit matters.( raise head this much and miss by that much) <CLICK> Aha that's really why I shoot some guns better than others. Aha that's why this platform, grips...blah works better than this other deal I shot.

So I found the platform that fit my hand best. I grew up with 1911's and K frames, and these ALWAYS had fit me better than anything else I ever shot, still true today. I have tried numerous and various combo's but I know what fits me .

Caliber: I have known since I shot my first 1911 at age 6 what the 45ACP would do. Same with 38spl and 357 from a K frame. One day I'm handed a BHP...humm fits like a 1911 , lets see what a 9mm will do...Okay, I can do this, and I shoot BHP's very well.

So I based my decison on gun fit and platform first. I like the SA trigger of a 1911 or a BHP and the smooth DA of a K frame. MOA is easy and they are second nature.

New student when I assisted with CCW " How do I pick a gun ...semi, revo. what caliber...etc. I really prefer the ones that have not bought a gun. And Women are better at listening.

Range: I/WE would have model 18 ,model 10, 3913, various glocks, Beretta Sig, 1911, 15, 13, 66, ...you name it

Start out with a 22 in revo and semi usually a 22/45.

Then I'd go over each gun with the student and point out the MOA etc. They would shoot. They/we would get a pretty good idea. To make the best choice for that student I used Hackathorn's test:

1/4 sheet of typing paper, timer, 5 yds prefer holsered, but low ready works. Sound of timer, 5 rds to target and note time. It get real apparent real quick which platform, MOA , Caliber fits shooter. Group size and time don't lie. If the shot to shot is slow due to recoil on say a 45 back down to a 9mm. That 357 gets backed down to +p 38. Yes in time practice and experience one can go up a notch.

Same test shows what platform works. " I can't shoot a DA/SA, I can't reach the safety" ok don't-- change up and try somethnng else. Hey this ain't rocket science if you won't shoot it , you won't practice and train, you won't carry and Frankly --Funerals remind me of weddings, everybody dressed up saying crap they don't mean and the families bitching about the flowers and decor and all. So its easier to pick something you can hit with and save everybody the grief. The women understood that better than the guys.

Now the .40: I didn't like the platforms. Right off the bat the paltforms didn't fit me, didn't like the recoil in those platforms, my groups were larger and my times slower. I do what I teach. I shoot a 1911 better with 45 ACP.

Students didn't like them either same reason, the ladies especially, and " I can buy 9mm cheaper and practice more" and my favorite " I like the "push" recoil of a 45, the big holes and I can steal my hubby's ammo.for pracice..he'll reload for me...if he knows whats what ...I know how to work him and what he likes";) I couldn't argue with those ...err she made perfect sense to me.



I don't care what one shoots as long as THEY are confident and meet the criteria I think is correct: fits shooter in a platform /MOA in the largest caliber they can handle with ammo working everytime in that gun giving them the quickest, most accurate hits.

"Be the firstest with the mostest"--Well I tend to think Forrest had the right idea.
 
I think shot placement means where you hit the target rather than if you hit the target.

That aside, while shot placement might be 80 percent of the equation, the other 20 percent is still the power of the round. So even though it is a smaller factor than placement, the diameter, weight, and velocity of the bullet still matters. That's why it is endlessly debated.
 
...while shot placement might be 80 percent of the equation, the other 20 percent is still the power of the round.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what the actual percentages might be, but in the main, I concur. My personal hunch is that the gun and caliber are far less important than the shooter. I think the gun and caliber become relatively more important on target ranges.
 
I am a dedicated follower of the .45acp. The 1911 platform and the Ruger P90 are comfortable and intuitive to me. I can and do hit what I shoot at with them and can do it with a fair amount of speed. I also have complete confidence in these platforms and this round.

That being said.

If the only gun I could shoot well enough for good shot placement, hit what I aimed at, was a .22 that's the only gun I would carry. Doesn't matter what I like or what I feel is the best caliber or that people may think it isn't macho enough. The only thing that matters is putting rounds on target. If you miss them with a .50 BMG you have still missed them. Now if you can put rounds on target with both a .22 and a 9mm, then the 9mm is the better defensive round for you.

If you can't hit what you shoot at all you have is a noisy, expensive, short club, a hammer would be better and cheaper.

DM
 
Nightcrawler;

"All three of them" That means I must have misplaced my third of all the .40 S&W handguns sold. I must be having a senior's moment, geez I've lost several million pistols. If I ever find the sucker's I'm gonna be rich!

900F
 
What I meant by the .40 crack was this. 10mm has "fans" (hell, it's a cult with a secret handshake). .45ACP has LEGIONS of followers. 9x19mm has plenty of its own fans.

But it seems people never get real excited over the .40 round. On boards like this, few people every say that .40S&W is their FAVORITE pistol round. I don't know why that is, it just is.

I think the biggest reason .40 is so popular today is because of the magazine capacity ban. If you can only have 10 rounds, most would prefer having 10 bigger rounds, I guess.

I'm sure it's a perfectly servicable cartridge, though.
 
Shot placement is very important.

However, shot placement on the range is one thing.

Shot placement on an axe-swinging orc charging you at close quarters is something else.

When I teach CCW, I have all my students do a modified version of the Tueller drill.

Even the best shooters can't get off two hits anywhere on an 8.5X11 inch target before the "attacker" gets six steps on them.

Just to avoid confusion, in my version of the Tueller Drill, the shooter stands at the line with handgun in hand, but down at his side, in the condition in which the piece will be carried. If that's cocked and locked, it's cocked and locked. If it's safety off with chamber empty, then safety off with chamber empty.

The "attacker" stands behind the shooter, with one hand on the shooter's shoulder. At a time of the attacker's choosing, he takes his hand off the shooter's shoulder and runs away from the shooter and target. The shooter must double tap the paper target 7 yards away and get two hits as fast as he can. On the first shot, the attacker drops a bandana. On the second shot, the attacker drops a hat.

Even with the gun in hand, expecting something to happen, the best shooters can't get the first shot off before the shooter gets six steps on them.

Most shooters see the attacker get about 15 steps on them before getting both shots off the first time around.

My point is this. In a real situation with someone really trying to kill me and closing on me quickly, I want a bullet big enough or fast enough or with enough energy to do lots of damage no matter where on the orc it hits.

I also know that in a real situation, with someone trying to kill me, my aim probably won't be so good. I might aim at the center of the chest, but hit lower, or off to one side.

So, I like self defense handguns to have the biggest, most powerful cartridge which I can handle easily and comfortably.

For me, the biggest I can easily handle is the .45 ACP. But for some folks, it's the .38 Special and for some, it's the 9mm.
 
Anybody that likes to shoot is going to have a hard time resisting follow-up shots regardless of initial placement. :D That does take much of the steam out of the caliber war questions.

Though, of the variables you list I must admit to being a bit of a velocity sponge. It means the difference between a hit and a miss on a moving target.

I realllllly hate to miss.
 
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Ain't no magic bullets.....

Any reliable handgun in caliber .38 special or larger will serve you well as a defensive weapon. The rest is up to you. Mindset, skill and pure dumb luck are the other components. You can't control luck, so no sense even worrying about it.

You can control your mindset and skill with your chosen weapon. That is the most important factor. Choose a weapon that fits you and your carry style, adopt a good condition yellow lifestyle, and practice with that weapon until it is an extension of your body and your assailant will never know or care that some gunwriter published a cover story in the latest issue of (insert gunrag name here) that said it was a) outdated b) inadequate c) too small d) too big.

Jeff
 
Try the falling-plate test... It takes more energy to knock down a stiff-set (if that's the appropriate description! :D ) falling plate than many 9mm. rounds will deliver. I've seen this many times at the range - most graphically in 2001, when I did the Advanced course at Chapman Academy near Columbia, Missouri. They'd just held the Bianchi Cup there the month before, so we incorporated all the Bianchi Cup courses of fire into our training (and boy, was THAT fun!!!). I was training with a Glock 19, and found repeatedly that steel plates that would fall over to a single well-placed .40 or .45 hit would stand up to repeated 9mm. hits and not react.

It's much the same on the street with "standard" ammunition. Yes, the 9mm. +P+ rounds will do a much better job: but the greater momentum of the heavier-caliber bullets does impart a greater shock than standard 9mm., like it or not. I think there's very little difference "on the street" between .45, .40 and .357 Magnum. The 9mm. +P+ approaches these levels, but ordinary 9mm. does not.
 
hillbilly-
we also did the modified Tueller drill with students, kinda gets one's attention.

My first Tueller Drill with the actual target coming at you in 1.5 sec. ,draw is from concealment. I get to go first. My Target is in dark clothes weilding an ax. Ok focus, take a breath -buzzer goes off and the lighting is dimmed to low light :what:

Needless to say I didn't expect this, but I did get two shots off...not the greatest, two shots mind you, but I at least got two off on target. Can we say pucker factor? SO laughing, "well you never know on the streets, why should you in here?" My surprise on going to low light was obvious. On Another student he used flashing blue lights,during the Tueller.
 
Why isn't everyone carrying a 9mm or .38?

Well that would be pretty damned boring, would it?

Could you imagine the conversations on boards such as these?

"The 9mm's a GREAT cartridge!"

"Yep."

"I agree."

"It sure it!"

"You got that right."

"Can't think of anything better."

:)
 
357 SIG definitely gets a boost... it's got 100-200 fps more velocity than even 9mm. +P+, which does move it up the power scale quite significantly, into .40 S&W territory. Same applies to 9x23 and .38 Super (the latter only in the hotter loads).

I think that bullet momentum is an often-ignored factor in stopping power. Momentum calculation is simple: it's mass multiplied by velocity. Although this should be figured in standardized metric quantities, the measurement can be applied "in the raw" using grains and fps for a direct equivalency between calibers. For standard loads, the results look like this:

9mm. standard: 115gr. @ 1100 fps = 126,500.

9mm. +P+: 115gr. @ 1300 fps = 149,500.

357 SIG: 125gr. @ 1400 fps = 175,000.

.40 S&W: 135gr. @ 1250 fps = 168,750.

.40 S&W: 165gr. @ 1150 fps = 189,750.

.40 S&W: 180gr. @ 970 fps = 174,600.

.45 ACP +P: 165gr. @ 1200 fps = 198,000.

.45 ACP +P: 185gr. @ 1150 fps = 212,750.

.45 ACP +P: 200gr. @ 1100 fps = 220,000

.45 ACP standard: 230gr. @ 850 fps = 195,500.

So .45 ACP standard has over 50% more momentum than standard 9mm. loads... that's quite a lot more whack, even leaving out the +P dimension in both rounds.
 
Am I missing something? I feel as if I am. Educate me then.

I contend a gun that fits the shooter enables a shooter to better place his shots. Placement meaning where one hits the target-not if one hits the target. First shot is important, too much recoil affects subsequent shots.
In a defensive situation shot placement is going to be different than a teddy at ten yds. Adrenaline, lighting and other factors figure in also. I understand mindset, what's the axiom 90 % mental and the rest is the gun and everything else? I still think a gun that fits allowing good accurate placement is going to help with the confidence/mindset. I agree also with lots of trigger time, training, one can pick up/use most anything and do ok,better though (IMO) isthe tool that fits shooter, instills confidence, and he has trained with .

Or am I just nuts?
 
re, you're right, of course. It all depends on what you can control to get accurate, rapid, repeated hits on target. Use the most powerful round available to you within those limitations/restrictions.

Mike, I respectfully disagree... I think momentum is a valid consideration in a defensive load. Sure, the energy of the bullet has to be transferred to the target, rather than wasted on boring a thin hole and then exiting: and sure, the right target has to be hit - a super-duper-felon-stopper-Magnum-blaster bullet in the calf muscle isn't likely to do more than hurt me, much less stop me shooting back! However, given good shot placement, and good energy transfer via efficient bullet design, momentum certainly comes into play here. I think it's one among many factors to be considered.
 
It all depends on what you can control to get accurate, rapid, repeated hits on target. Use the most powerful round available to you within those limitations/restrictions.
Click to expand...

Thank you. That is what I was always taught, believed in and passed onto others.

Or am I just nuts?
Click to expand...

Well I expected an "Amen" from Preacherman ;) Heck, was gonna edit, but this bunch might take another thread drift and debate my sanity. :D

Might be the only thing we all agree on...
 
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