Shot Placement!!! Blah, Blah, Blah

[gbran]

You can go to any gun forum and find caliber war threads (9 v 45, etc.). You can always count on numerous responses (usually defending the smaller caliber) touting "shot placement" as the most important issue regarding effectiveness and trumping all other considerations. While I don't disagree that shot placement is paramount, there often seems an ustated assumption that larger calibers aren't capable of shot placement. Sorry, this really irks me.

Next time someone says a 380 to the heart is better than a 500 S&W magnum to the pinky finger, I feel the need to respond that a 500 S&W magnum to the heart is a whole lot better than a 380 to the heart. BTW, my primary daily carry is a 9mm.

Now I certainly understand that the 380 shooter will most likely be able to place faster followup shots on target than the 500 Magnum shooter. But in real terms, most decent shooters can plant fairly fast and accurate multiple shots on target using common calibers up thru 45acp and probably hotter. I also understand that very light guns with hot calibers are more difficult for followup shots. Speaking of hot calibers, about the only difference between 9mm's and .357's is case size, amount of powder and speed of projectiles (the old fast is better argument).

But my final opinion is that bullet effectiveness due to caliber, design, weight, speed or any combination is nearly as important as shot placement. If shot placement was the only consideration, we could all use pellet guns. Of course we know this ain's so.

Somewhere between .22lr and 500 S&W Magnums there are a range of common calibers/cartidge types we can feel comfortable defending ourselves with. Not everybody agrees on what the minimum should be and my point here is not to repeat that debate, but without going to extremes I am going to repeat that I really get irked when it appears that there is an underlying assumption in the caliber war threads that shot placement apparently isn't possible with larger calibers. I have several 9mms and 45's, all of which are capable of fine shot placement.

 

[redranger1]

shot placement is over rated anyhow. escpecially when shootin a 500 s&w!

 

[Gelicious]

On this topic i will say what i tell everyone that thinks that any "caliber" is better than another in terms of stopping power..

Stand 15 yards downrange and let me shoot you in the chest with a .380 and then again with a .45 and tell me which one you would stop trying to harm me after.

I bet NO ONE would ever take me up on that offer. So shot placement does count but unless the "BG" is totally high on speed or meth, one shot anywhere on the body will stop them from harming you. Unless they also have a gun, then shoot for COM or a head shot if you can.

 

[XDKingslayer]

Why would a larger caliber be harder for initial shot placement than any other caliber?

If you can't get your .45 on target as quick as your .380 it's time to hit the gym.

 

[ceetee]

I've told this story before, but in the only shooting I've witnessed where I actually saw the shooter and the victim, saw the slide move, and saw the man's chest get a funny little hole in it, the victim was shot with a .25 Raven.

The victim was easily six-foot tall, was young and strong, was drunk as all heck, and yes, it was a one-shot-stop.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

I haven't personally seen or been involved in any shootings, BUT, at a meeting with an Deputy DA (Prior to getting my CCW), he opined the following:

He (Steve Fieldman) has investigated numerous shooting scenes and his observation is that NO caliber or number of shots or shot placement is sufficient to stop a determined assailant (shotgun is a different story, but only to a somewhat lesser extent).

The determined attacker WILL keep coming no matter how many shots are fired or where they hit.

The attacker is ATTACKING YOU and is determined to get to you and the .45 caliber bullets hitting him are not going to stop him. They may eventually stop or kill him, but your job is to stay out of his clutches until the shock stops him.

This is not TV or the movies. He isn't going to to be thrown backwards by your super duper CCW weapon.

 

[444]

They are also forgetting the fact that the bigger the weapon, the less close to perfect shot placement you have to be.
A perfect shot with a .380 is better than a .500 S&W to the pinky.
A shot six inches from perfect with a .223 is better than either one.
A tomahawk missle in the same building is better than that.

 

[Shootcraps]

Your analogies (pellet gun) are interesting but illogical. When choosing a defensive cartridge, you choose it the same way as if you're choosing a round for hunting, say whitetail deer or even bear.

You need a round that will penetrate the outer hide (man is thin-skinned like a deer) and then expand and destroy as much of the innards as possible. Hollow point rouns work well.

You wouldn't use the same round for a bigger animal like a bear. Bears have a thick skin and heavy layer of fat and grisle to punch through. Gotta have a hard, non-expanding bullet.

Of course you aim for heart/lung area to incapacitate them and take them down. So shot placement is important. But it's part of a formula, and not a magic wand.

 

[gbran]

Your analogies (pellet gun) are interesting but illogical..............

My analogies were meant to illustrate the ridiculousness of other's arguments, not intended as a recipe or recommendation on caliber/cartridge choice. You make good points, but probably didn't read my post closely.

 

[RyanM]

Speaking of hot calibers, about the only difference between 9mm's and .357's is case size, amount of powder and speed of projectiles (the old fast is better argument).

Actually, in guns of similar size (2.5" revolver vs. 4" auto), .357 magnum and 9mm are close in power, with bullets of the same weight. The advantage of the .357 (and .38) is being able to use heavier bullets, like 158 and 180 grain ones.

Anyway though, shot placement is way more important than caliber. Penetration is a lot more important than caliber, too. A .22 that penetrates 12" beats the heck out of a .50 AE that breaks up and only penetrates 6", unless you get really lucky with the shot placement.

Bullet size is somewhat important, but really, with hole sizes bigger than about .35", any more is just icing on the cake. Heart shot with a .45, dead in 10 seconds. Heart shot with a .380, dead in 12 seconds. Not that big a difference. I should do some fluid flow rate junk and see just how much of a difference there is between calibers, in terms of blood loss.

 

[P0832177]

You shoot to terminate the aggression. That might occur with one shot or slide lock! There is no definitive answer! That is why a person has to seek cover and do a constant threat assessment of your situation! COM shots are a must! There are way too many variables with respect to the dynamic flow of a shooting.

Least of which

Barriers ie winter clothes or items used as convert
Polysubstance abuse
Caliber and ammo choices

 

[Marshall]

The determined attacker WILL keep coming no matter how many shots are fired or where they hit.

The attacker is ATTACKING YOU and is determined to get to you and the .45 caliber bullets hitting him are not going to stop him. They may eventually stop or kill him, but your job is to stay out of his clutches until the shock stops him.

Uh, OK sure.

 

[Glocker]

If the head is dead, the body will drop!!!

 

[cookekdjr]

The determined attacker WILL keep coming no matter how many shots are fired or where they hit.

I've seen a few folks whose head's exploded like egg shells who would beg to differ...if they were still alive.
Then there's the folks whose legs and hips shattered. Turns out they only seemed determined. When their pelvis/legs shattered, they decided involuntarily collapsing on the floor was the best idea they had heard in ages.
Sure, some folks will take fatal hits, but still manage to take a few folks with them before they bleed out. Happens every day in the big city.
But in all the homicides I've investigated I have never seen someone with his head blown off continue in his determination to kill other folks.
YMMV.
-David

 

[brickeyee]

"While I don't disagree that shot placement is paramount, there often seems an ustated assumption that larger calibers aren't capable of shot placement."

Straw man argument. You added the "ustated assumption". Maybe it is unstated because it is not believed?

I do not think anyone is really claiming you cannot hit with the larger weapon, at least for the first shot. Follow up is slower with more powerful calibers due to Mr. Newton and those annoying physics 'laws'. 'Race guns' use a bunch of things to mitigate recoil, but are not exactly great CCW weapons in most cases.
I can hammer with a .22 rimfire, slow some with a .38, and slow a little more with a .45.
If any one of these gets into the BG in a critical area he will be hurt. The bigger rounds provide a little more margin for getting in and producing the hurt, but a .22 rim in the head is still very effective.

All that said, I choose to carry a .45. It has a decent balance of penetration and control. So do 9mm, 10mm, .357 mag, etc. I just prefer this caliber. It has been effective and works in auto pistols. If I carried a revolver I would head for a .357 Magnum.

 

[Lucky 7]

I carry a Beretta 87 during the humid and hot southern GA summers and a baby eagle in 9 during the cool winter. I believe in shot placement to be key no matter the caliber but a cool head is the most important aspect of ANY SD shooting (in Iraq I saw a lot of the LEADERS "bitch out" as an 0311).
Worry about your gear and weapons second and your mental training first.

Regards and Semper Fi!
-L7

 

[R.W.Dale]

It's really as simple as can be.

In hunting a deer doesn't get any deader when shot with a .338WM over a .270win

In SD a bad guy won't get to hell any faster when shot with a 45 over a 9mm.

Dead is dead , there is only one kind of dead , you can only get so dead , dead is as dead does , there ain't such a thing as the deader the better , dead as a box of rocks means the same thing as dead as a hammer or doornail.

Unless we are talking about the undead

 

[Darkness]

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does NOT MAKE SENSE! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does NOT MAKE SENSE! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, [approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does NOT MAKE SENSE! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

 

[Marshall]

Long live drugs?

 

[Biker]

I'll agree that shot placement is the most important key, but after that, it's a matter of edges. Bigger bullets make bigger holes and HPs may or may not expand.
I want every edge I can get, so I'll take the biggest bullet, all things being equal.
Biker

 

[CarbineKid]

I once took a SD class. One of the lessons taught was if you have to shoot, shoot until the threat stops. So I of the belief that a wall of lead will stop anyone. If I ever get in a firfight Im going to kep shooting the BG unil he is down/dead.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Shot placement is hightly subjective to the caliber and make of handgun used.

For example... a hit in the knee with a Glock .45 acp is equal to a COM hit with a decent 1911.

 

[MCgunner]

Bwaaa, ha, ha, the chubaka defense! (I love South Park)


Yeah, I can guarantee you I can hit MUCH better with my .45 than my .380! Why, you say? The gun is MUCH more accurate and I just shoot it better. I can't fit it in a pocket, but I'd rather have it in a gun fight and not because of any power factor, one shot stop percentage, muzzle energy, but because I shoot it so well. It is my favorite autoloader. I've won a lot of local matches with it. My .380 shoots about 6" groups off sand bags at 25 yards... But, it fits in a pocket and is better than nothing when you can't carry anything else. If I can, I'll carry my P11 Kel Tec 9, though. I'm pretty good with it, too, and it's pretty accurate. But, I can't quite match my shooting with that .45. However, it's hands over fist more accurate than my .380.

Now, I can hit very well with several of my .22s, perhaps better than my .45, though I'm doubtful. But, even if I could demonstrate my superior proficiency with the .22s, I don't think I'd give up the nine or the .45 in lieu of a .22... COM is a bigger target than a CNS shot. With the .22, I'd be shooting at eye sockets.

 

[P-35/53]

Not flaming anyone but all that maters is shot placement , because a miss is still a miss. And a hit is better with 30-06 than 45.

 

[gbran]

p-35/53

You've just made my point. A hit with one caliber is better than a miss with another? Sure, but why assume the other caliber can't achieve shot placement?