Shotgun fun, useing your shotgun in a pistol match.

[Correia]

I posted about this over in competition, but figured some of you shotgun guys might get a kick out of it.

Last Saturday my local IDPA/3gun club put on an all steel target pistol match. It was pretty big with a minimum round count of 200. The match director put in a totally open class where anything that wouldn't hurt the steel targets was allowed. This way people could come out and use their .22s and their pistol caliber carbines.

You guys know me, I used a shotgun. (Saiga 12) I was the only person to do so.

There were 7 stages, so most of the stages required me to shoot about 20-30 rounds at a time. Plus there was a shotgun mini match afterwards. So Saturday morning I shot about 250 shells, all going about as fast as I could go. It was some of the most fun I've had shooting in a long time. I crashed and burned in the mini match because I tried to go to fast and got sloppy. 5 shots in 1.4 seconds, and I guess I shouldn't be surprised when one ends up WAY the heck off.

When I go to a regular match I put on my game face and try my hardest. However it is really hard to be serious when you are using a shotgun in a pistol match.

At one point I got zinged because I hit some steel on a vertical plate rack, but failed to swing them to the other side. (sissy birdshot loads) So for the next string I loaded up with 00 buckshot and beat the crap out of the targets. Try putting 30 rounds of buckshot downrange in something like 30 seconds. It is kind of exilerating. Believe me, those little buggers swung that time. Take the mag changes out, and I was sending 3 or 4 buckshots loads down range per second. I was grinning like an idiot.

I haven't gotten the scores yet, but don't expect to do real well. Even with the Saiga it is too hard to keep up with the reloading against the other guys shooting 10-22s. But I'm willing to bet I had the most fun of anybody there.

 

[gearbox]

 

[sm]

ROFL
boy didn't grow up - he just got bigger

"you know me, used a shotgun in a pistol match- only person to do so...sissy birdshot...grining like an idiot...2 shots in 1.4 sec...30 rds in like 30 sec...loaded up buckshot and beat the crap out the targets that had before zinged shooter..."

Them kids realize how much fun their daddy had?

Larry , thanks for sharing...still laughing picturing that in my mind..."daddy always said if a target zings you with sissy birdshot...beat the crap out of it with 00 later" [ Larry's kids in a few years...you wait...I betcha]

 

[Dave McCracken]

I would love to have some video of that! And, some of the spectators watching that firestorm occur.

 

[kotengu]

Well done! I'm jealous again - hell, most of the time I get funny looks for bringing a FAL to a "rifle" match (I still have trouble considering a mousegun a "rifle"). I don't think I'd even be allowed on the range if I brought my 870 to a pistol match, but I'd sure love to try!

 

[Smoke]

Now, that sounds like fun!

Wonder if I could manage that old Humpback like a pistol?



Smoke

 

[Correia]

www.udpl.net/results/32704.html Not bad as I thought, 8th out of something like 45. And most of the guys ahead of me were shooting 10-22s. Those 5 plates I failed to knock over cost me 25 seconds.

Next time.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Wow! I wonder how folks number 9 to 45 felt after seeing that. I wonder if anyone thinks your AK-12 is full auto?

How's the Saiga holding up? I'd consider 250 rounds fast under match conditions a reasonable field test.

 

[Correia]

Dave, probably around 3,000+ rounds of assorted ammo. Mostly cheap bulk pack stuff, but also slugs and buck. Not a single malfunction yet. And you know me, I don't really understand what is this "slow fire"?

It is rough, and feels kinda crude. However it is the most reliable semi auto shotgun that I have ever seen.

 

[kotengu]

What are you using for magazines (capacity)? Any rumors of what might happen after the ban? How are the mag changes coming (is it a rock'n'lock, like the AK)?

Most importantly, how on earth do you do "select slug" drills with that (ie: shoot 4 with shot, select slug, shoot one, etc.)?

 

[Correia]

Select slug is a pain, drop magazine, load new one with slug. Or drop magazine, load single slug into chamber. Either one is a pain.

There is some debate about whether the magazines with greater than 5 round capacity are legal or not. If you read the AWB then they are legal, (evil features = 1. pistol grip. 2. detachable magazine (check) 3. FIXED magazine of greater than 10 rounds). But even if they are legal, they are super scarce because the the dealers that have them are scared to sell them to anybody but LE.

Now when the ban goes away I expect to see Saigas really take off for competition use. Especially if the rumor is true and they are going to begin producing one with an automatic bolt hold open.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks. 3K rounds of varied ammo shot under field/match conditions quickly constitute a good T&E.

It'd be interesting to have you fire the Saiga on a timed COF or six and then repeat the exercise with one of the more common 3 gun auto shotguns...

 

[Bob F.]

Finally saw the Saiga 12ga at a gunshow today-$399. Bbl seemed a little long, maybe just a long receiver, I'm not really knowledgable re: AK's. Very
interesting piece, indeed!
Stay safe.
Bob

 

[akanotken]

Saiga test

It'd be interesting to have you fire the Saiga on a timed COF or six and then repeat the exercise with one of the more common 3 gun auto shotguns...

I did this 2 days ago on my own. Helping Stresspuppy out in his quest for shotty nirvanna. He had borrowed an 870, Comp Master, Benelli M3 and a Saiga. Early on, he had pretty much narrowed it down to the Remmy vs Benny show. We set up an 8 rd COF and ran it a bunch of times. We used cardboard, so accuracy was estimated. Hind sight says building/borrowing clay holders and poppers and plates would have been better.

Our course was short to take reloads off the clock (most important part of a competition, but also we wanted lots of repetitions, and the feeling was that reloading was where he'd spend most practice time for a while, so not a good early measure of a shotgun for comp). So of course the Saiga 12 was not competitive here unless we would have borrowed the 8 rounder. At best it's on even footing with no reloading, and I could have shot it as fast.

We also did some "on the buzzer, empty 8 keeping the rounds on a single target" stuff too (looking to judge the controllability of the SGs). I did both the remmy and benny. I did 6 with Saiga for fun, and was a touch faster than my 6th shot with either of the others. (We recorded the time of each shot). But you are splitting hairs here. Range of times was something like 1.8 to 2.1 sec's for the 8 rounders. BTW, for me the Remmy was easier to control on hammer drills closely followed by the Saiga and the Benny was a distant third. All were done using full power birdshot (1 1/4 oz , 3 1/4 dram stuff). But you rarely have the need to hammer with a shotty in competition. Target spacing gives ample time for recovery. This is why a pump can be very competitive IMO, although top competitors don't use them.

I post this as an example of my experiece "competing" with the Saiga. I use that term loosely as I don't practice enough to be good. My brief experience has been that course designers are very well aware of the limitations of the Saiga and love to exploit them. Examples.

We had one double barrel friendly match a year or so back where you could never have 2 rds in the gun at once

Lots of courses allow you to start with 8 or more rounds, but I've seen some where that's the entire stage. You are hosed unless you have the full cap mags.

And I've seen select slug drills. Got around that one by careful mag handling and not missing.

Of course, it's not just the course designers that will get you. I'm sad to report that I've blown my fair share of reloads:banghead:

My mentallity: When I see a COF that seems to "pick on" Saigas, I take it as a challenge to try and beat others. I'm guessing that they have the same mentallity when they see courses that stress reloading. And I'd say that more matches are won with quick reloading more than accuracy or shooting fast.

 

[akanotken]

length of bbl and length of gun

Bbl seemed a little long, maybe just a long receiver

Overall length of the 19" Saigas is ~41".

Lots of OU's with 28" bbl would be ~46". So if you cut 9 off you could get back to ~37". Of course you'd want to cut the stock down to pistol grip area only so now you've got ~27"

Other short bbl option is the pump. 870 18" bbl gives ~39". Pistol grip only would take it to ~~27"!!!


I'll get close thou. I'm thinking I'll need to dress my Saiga up with a PG, folder, bayo lug and flash suppressor in the post ban world

 

[Correia]

akanotken, I can agree with your assesment. Limited to 5 round magazines the Saiga can't really hang in there on most COFs. However when/if the ban expires, I'm expecting Saigas to take off in 3gun competition for a couple of reasons, but the biggest is going to be cost. You can get a Saiga for about half of what you can get a competition ready Remington 1100 for. Once 8 round mags become common, I expect to see Saigas take on more and more prominence as more and more shooters use them.

That will be interesting. At that point the only thing that 1100s and Benellies and X2s will dominate on will be select slug drills. Very few of us can do the multiple shell reloading trick for tube fed shotguns, but magazine feed allows shotgunners with out that level of practice/commitment to keep up.

Either way, it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[akanotken]

I sure hope so I can't pretend to understand all of the laws that are out there, and I'm not going to drift this thread with it other than to say, under my reading of the AWB we should already have the 8 rd mags. Since we don't now I worry that we won't after (not enough demand, maybe afraid of waking the feds as it would look like other DD's, 922 import ban, ????) I wish I was smarter about all that. I get into it and my head starts to spin

I think it will take more time in the competitive world. Currently, they are holding that mag's are speedloaders, and so any saiga is automatically up with the open class. This may not be universal, and it certainly could change.

The prevailing feeling is that there are too many tube fed autos to make them all obsolete (even if the replacement is fairly priced). I say a better design should be allowed to play. Using this mentallity and a flare for taking things to far you could argue that we'd still be competing with clubs. Maybe we'll eventually "evolve" to mag fed shotties, but I'm guessing it'll take a while.

In the meantime, take the cof's that are aimed at making the match tuff on us as a challenge. Buy a sidemount and dot in case you do get kicked to open class and enjoy the trigger time. You shooting that pistol match with a SG tells me I'd like you a lot in person too

How many mags are you running with. Ever have a course require so many rounds that you had to load the mag out of pocket and then insert it. I came close at one match, then a buddy showed up with his and we shared. (I only have 4 mags for my 20ga). I actually expect that some where we'll be told that we have to start with empty sg, shells in pocket or something :banghead: I shot a pistol stage that I later nicknamed "uh oh"
where you started with an empty gun, fresh mag in your holster. On buzzer stand, draw weapon, mag change and rack slide, then get busy. Guess it's just a matter of time before I see it in shotgun...

 

[Correia]

I'm running with enough mags so that I have about 30 rounds on tap. I haven't had to go over that in a single stage. Because at that point the average shooter who has to single load shells will revolt and the match director would get strung up!

I don't think tube fed will ever go away, and honestly the really good master shotgunners will be using those forever. I've got to watch some of the guys who are considered the best of the best, and they reload so fast that it is a blur.