Shotgun or "assault" rifle for CQB?

[itgoesboom]

From 0-25 yards, I would want my shottie.

From 25 yards on out, I would want a rifle. I only have two, sks or CETME. I would probably grab the CETME, cuz like was mentioned before, that aint really CQB.

Inside my apartment though, the shotgun gets the nod.

I.G.B.

 

[Jayman]

I hate to jump in with the crowd, but I'm very fond of the AR. It isn't the end-all-be-all, but I am very comfortable with one. Loaded with cor-bon JHPs, it won't go through tons of interior material, but will be devastating at close range.

That said, there's a Mossberg 500 pump gun sitting beside my bed, stoked with 00 and with slugs on the side-saddle. I've made 50 yard shots with it, no problem. (With slugs.) If somebody wants to get up close and personal with me, that's likely what'll fall to hand first. (Got the surefire forend too.)

So how's that for no answer at all?

 

[Tamara]

I've ditched the shotgun in favor of an AR carbine for a house long gun.

 

[c_yeager]

Unless we're talking an aircraft hangar, the shotgun is king for social work inside of a building.

Well you do have to get TO the building and get out of it again... This is why you are seeing more M4s and fewer shotguns in the military these days.

Now for HOME defense its a whole nuther story and i dont see shooting out to 100meters in that situation at all.

 

[Black Snowman]

I mulled over this question and for a post-ban legal, short and effective package for my home I went with the Bushmaster M17S. In stock form it's 30" long and has a 21.5" barrel. I get 2700+ FPS with Wolf 55 gr HP ammo and 30 rounds in the mag plus relatively quick mag changes.

If I was humping it through a field I'd want something lighter though

 

[MrPink]

Defensive long gun is a rifle. Use to use a shotgun, but I like the shorter length of a carbine and hi-cap mags. I use a pre-ban CAR-15 with a flash suppressor and telestock.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Howzabout an SKS with the bayo extended and a pocket full of loaded stripper clips? That should be good for 0-100m against multiple targets.

 

[fix]

A rifle beats a shotgun every time, in every way...unless you are defending yourself from a flock of rabid seagulls. Buckshot is considered a mediocre fight stopper by several well respected authorities. A shotgun with slugs is nothing more than a crappy rifle when you get right down to it. With modern optics giving rifles the same speed when delivering quick shots on the fly, the advantages the shotgun/buckshot combo used to have are diminished. I am honestly not sure exactly what role the shotgun is suited for anymore, at least as far as fighting is concerned. I'm sure there are at least a few situations where they might be called for, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what they are. When you get right down to it, there are more situations that force you to pick a pistol over a rifle than a shotgun.

 

[Correia]

Defense at limited range. (i.e. my home or inside a building) Shotgun. I'm not worried about stopping power since I can fire 3-4 aimed shots a second with 00 buck shot. If they don't leave me alone after I put an ounce of lead into them, I've got eight more where that came from.

Anything with potential range involved. Rifle.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Buckshot is considered a mediocre fight stopper by several well respected authorities

Cites? That's news to me. I've always thought a 12ga at close range, especially loaded with buckshot, was devastating.

 

[AK103K]

The rifles in the AR/AK categories will take it hands down. They are much easier to handle, are faster to shoulder and shoot, carry more ammo on the gun and on your person and are faster to reload, and will defeat armor and cover/concealment that will easily stop a shotgun. Even at close range, a good vest will stop the shotgun and pistol caliber carbines, the rifles zip right through.

 

[fix]

I believe it was Jim Cirillo who stated that the NYPD stakeout squads often reported multiple failures to stop that resulted in them moving to slugs in their duty guns. I don't have any references handy, and can't recall where else I heard this, but I do remember hearing it several times from multiple sources. Either way, I'm not sure how one would go about making a convincing argument that any load fired from a shotgun was more effective than a rifle round.

 

[Correia]

I hear the body armor argument brought up a lot against shotguns for home defense. A. Not a lot of crooks wearing body armor. B. If you are nervous, shoot them in the head. It is easy to get good hits against tiny little fast moving clay pigeons. A ten inch head moving down your hallway is easy in comparison.

Faster to shoulder and shoot? Negative. With a trained and practiced user, wash at best. As an 3gun SO, I've run hundreds of shooters on rifles and shotguns through various COFs. Time for the first shot onto a close range target for either weapon system is rougly the same.

As for the weakness of buckshot, and experts being against it, the only experts I've heard against buckshot were refferring to its use against heavy skinned game like wild boars and bears. Against a soft skinned human at household ranges, shotguns are excellent stoppers.

I love both weapons, and both have their uses. One is more limited, but at close range, it can be amazingly fast.

 

[ckyllo]

how about the best of both worlds: M4gry or real M4 with a master key shotgun under the barrel. get to make a mess out someone at close range and have a long range option.

 

[ny32182]

I think those violate typical shotgun barrel length rules.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

A shotgun may have the edge in "stopping power" (yes I know that's a nebulous term) at close range, but has several disadvantages compared with a rifle:

1. Effective range w/buckshot is limited to ~30 yards.
2. Heavy recoil. Some people can handle it, but a lot can't.
3. Unless you're using something like a Saiga, tubular mags suck if you need a reload.
4. With slugs they are generally not as accurate as a carbine at 100 yards.
5. Ammo is heavy and bulky, so if the situation dictates moving around a lot, this could be a problem.

Right now of the guns I own my first choice would be my Mini-14 loaded with XM-193. Second choice would be my Saiga AK-103 clone loaded with JHPs. Third choice would be my Marlin Camp .45.

Even though they have tubular mags and the associated reloading problems, I'd prefer a lever gun .357, .44 Mag, or .45 Colt over a shotgun for the other reasons I mentioned above.

IMO, YMMV, ASDA.

 

[TechBrute]

how about the best of both worlds: M4gry or real M4 with a master key shotgun under the barrel. get to make a mess out someone at close range and have a long range option.

The shotgun doesn't have enough advantages over the carbine to justify the added weight, legality aside.

 

[DMK]

I used to keep a shotgun for HD, but you're talking 18" barrel length if you want to avoid NFA issues. With a full stock, that's really kind of unwieldy for CQD (Close Quarter Defense) and with those shorter lengths most shotguns only hold 5 or 6 rounds in the tube.

I've since gone to the AR platform with a 16" barrel. It's lightweight, handles easily, very accurate, has much less recoil, it's easier to shoot for other family members, has more firepower on board(learn double taps), and mag changes make for much quicker reloads.

Like any other weapon including a 12 gauge, you need to be aware of what ammo you use. Not all .223/5.56 is equal.

 

[Glamdring]

My thoughts. Best info I have for real world long range shooting by Police Snipers says they take shots at 100 yards or less. Average is probably closer to 50 or 75 yards.

With my Win 1300 smoothbore I can make headshots on demand at 50 yards. With a rifled shotgun barrel and Barnes X slugs (they expand up to around 1.5") I could do that at 100 yards. Trajectory is about same as 30-30 from 16" barrel.

In the real world your not going to be able to Legally shoot at someone that isn't an immediate threat (hard to explain to jury why you felt in immediate fear of death from someone 50 yards away not to mention 100 unless your talking something like Charles Whitman...who was taken out by shotguns and whatever at close range IIRC by people using cover and movement to close with him). Your not going to be shooting at 10 or 20 people either (not legally IMO, maybe one or two beyond that either you will be dead or they will be leaving).

Considering the above, and the fact that a 12 gauge slug is worlds better than several 223's consider that with one shot you will put a .75" (unexpanded slug is ~ .729) to 1.5" (expanded Barnes X) hole in target, now think about a controlled pair with a semi shotgun! And that a typical "Social Shotgun" will have 7+1 rounds, figure 2 slugs per customer and you don't need to reload in a real world gunfight (unless you think you can survive against more than 4 goblins??? And explain to jury why you needed to shoot so many people.). I feel that the shotgun with slugs is first choice for non military situations by anyone who can handle the recoil.

Most gunfights involving shotguns are ended with one or two rounds. I am not aware of a single incident that wasn't ended by at the most two SLUGS per goblin(buckshot is iffy, very range dependant I use slugs for anything outside 5 or 7 yards myself, I am aware of more than one shooting were buckshot wasn't real effective).

 

[Onmilo]

Anything short, semi-automatic, rifled and carrying twenty rounds or more in the detachable box magazine.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I'm pretty handy with a shotgun. In fact I can shoot 2 inch groups with Winchester slugs out of my shotgun. I'd use my shotgun past 100 yards on a deer.

Shotguns are good practical arms. Now carry 200 rounds of shotgun ammo... that's not terribly practical. Your deerslayer with an extended magazine bayonet lug and falshlight taped to it now swings like fence post instead of the elegant game gun it was designed to be.

Something in 5.56/5.45 with a 30 round mag starts looking better when the bad guys are hiding behind walls, cars, etc. Heck something in .308 starts loooking good again in that situation.

I'd pick a carbine or even a full sized rifle... a shotgun doesn't save much in size and adds a lot of weight.

Besides, you can club someone with an AK... it was designed for it!