Shotgun or lever action for bear

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Bears

I've only killed one bear in my life,shot in head with 45-70 with a 405 wheel weight slug.I would'nt use a 300 gr for big bears,and if I did'nt handload I'd get Garretts or something like that.
The only other rifle I have to consider would be Rem 700 ss/syn in.338RUM,with a-frames or something heavily constructed.
There is a reason the 45-70 is still alive,and it is'nt just cowboy shoots.
 
I have only killed one bear in my life but it was a charging sow. She took 6 30-30, 5 8mm and 6 .38 special before she went down. An animal that is MAD is totally different than hunting that is unaware of you. I now carry a 45-70 when I am in bear country.
 
Read an article not long ago about a guide in Alaska that but down a charging black bear with 2 shots from a 10mm, both head shots. I will see if I can find it and post link.
 
It's too bad about the dangerous people out there in the wilderness. When I started doing the outdoors thing it was to escape from that stuff. Maybe it's worse in the lower 48 cause the population density is greater than in Canada. I have fond memories of meeting really cool people out in the bush. From the sounds of it I need to be careful about people and bears now. That's too bad. The reason I was asking about the lever action 44 mag in the original post was because that's the gun I was thinking of using for hd. Handguns are so restricted in Canada that I doubt it would be worth having one. Semi auto will prob be banned at some time so I thought maybe a 44 lever action would have magazine capacity and somewhat rapid fire. If I can use it for bear defense all the better. I know a shotgun is good hd but the capacity isn't so good. Oh well, what can you do.
 
I have only killed one bear in my life but it was a charging sow. She took 6 30-30, 5 8mm and 6 .38 special before she went down. An animal that is MAD is totally different than hunting that is unaware of you. I now carry a 45-70 when I am in bear country.
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Are you sure that all of you were aiming in the right spots?? Maybe 4 of the 6 30-30 went into the guts, on a foot, in the air or against something else...same for the 8 mm....I can understand a 38 Special failing to penetrate but a proper 30-30 and 8 mm loads......frankly I'm suspicious of a story like this if these bullets went where they should go....
 
Last several trips to AK, most of my guides were carrying shotties. 1st round bucksot to the face to get their attention and give them pause....... followed by slugs. Grizzlies are quite different than black bears. It's hard to get a frontal effective head shot given the slope and shape of their head.

All the above assumes pretty close quarters.
 
Are you sure that all of you were aiming in the right spots?? Maybe 4 of the 6 30-30 went into the guts, on a foot, in the air or against something else...same for the 8 mm....I can understand a 38 Special failing to penetrate but a proper 30-30 and 8 mm loads......frankly I'm suspicious of a story like this if these bullets went where they should go....
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Three of the shots (8mm) went into the head (non fatal), all of the 30-30 went into the body and none penetrated deep enough to kill (150gr sp) all .38 into the head (no effect/penetration). Bear was finally killed by 8mm (2). Understand we were NOT HUNTING BEAR we were hunting deer and had lighter rapidly expanding ammo NOT heavier/deeper penetrating bullets. Also the bear was running/charging and shot placement was not OPTIMAL. Believe it or not I really don't care.
 
I'm wondering about .44 mag cause a lot of people use it in a revolver for bears
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A lot of people use the 44 mag in a handgun simply because, and until recently, it was the most powerful cartridge you could get in a portable platform of repeating value.

Believe me, if handiness and portability wasn't a factor, I think most people in bear country would be packin' something with more authority such as a 12ga. launching slugs.

:D
 
Three of the shots (8mm) went into the head (non fatal), all of the 30-30 went into the body and none penetrated deep enough to kill (150gr sp) all .38 into the head (no effect/penetration). Bear was finally killed by 8mm (2). Understand we were NOT HUNTING BEAR we were hunting deer and had lighter rapidly expanding ammo NOT heavier/deeper penetrating bullets. Also the bear was running/charging and shot placement was not OPTIMAL. Believe it or not I really don't care.
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If all of you were using typical whitetail bullets for rapid expansion I can understand the lack of penetration...still at very short distance the 30-30 is a reasonable powerhouse...yes, 150 gr. is light.

Federal 170 gr. Partition or Winchester 170 gr. Silvertips or Grizzly Ammo 170 grainers flat nose Nosler Partition probably would have been a different story...

As you said, even if you had your 45-70, with no ideal shot placement (typical in a charging situation) and using fast expanding deer hunting bullets the likely results would have been the same..lack of adequate penetration and need for several shots...regardless of the caliber...
 
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A lot of people use the 44 mag in a handgun simply because, and until recently, it was the most powerful cartridge you could get in a portable platform of repeating value.

Believe me, if handiness and portability wasn't a factor, I think most people in bear country would be packin' something with more authority such as a 12ga. launching slugs.
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A 44 Mag with heavy (300 gr, and up) harcast or even partition bullets loaded at full SAAMI specs (not the watered down Remington, Winchester or Federal) is a decent bear defense tool (especially out of 6" + barrel length) at very short distance, assuming you know where to shoot....

But if you get in the woods with a 2" 44 Mag revolver loaded with your run of the mill Soft Point ammo from Remchesteral it's a different story...full house (within SAAMI limits) 240 gr. 44 Mag develop ~1200 ft/lb at the muzzle (assuming 6" of barrel length or more), the dumbed down commercial loads are in the ~700-800 ft/lb range....quite the difference....some +P or +P+ loads can reach 1600+ ft/lb, approaching 454 Casull level but these are intended only for Ruger and Taurus Raging Bull revolvers.

Federal Cast Core or Garrett Hammerheads has been proven reliable grizzly stopper, again when you know where to aim...this last point is fundamental with any cartridge you are using...

In a comparative test, the 310 gr, 44 Mag Garrett Hammerhead outpenetrated a 300 gr. Nosler Partiton bullet fired from an 375 H&H....Yes I know the Nosler Partition is still an expanding bullet, but the 375 H&H is a ~5000 ft/lb cartridge compared to a ~1200 for the 44....pure penetration....
 
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Maybe this is the reason why many hunting guides advice about never hunting alone in bear country (grizzly or big blacks) especially if you are not specifically hunting for the big bruins..always have someone taking turn at holding the appropriate tool for the evenience..a 12 ga. pump gun stuffed with Brenneke Slugs or a rifle loaded with stoutly built deep penetrating bullets....

You may be in trouble even with a 375 H&H if you are shooting long range with fast expanding light for caliber (for example 270 gr.) spitzer bullets...

There was a case of a 300 Wby Mag bullet literally exploding at impact (probably hitting bones) at no more than 5 yards during a grizzly charge....a heavy round nose partition bullet would have behaved very differently...
 
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read an article by Larry Kelly, CEO of magna-port inc. he had a medium sized brownie drop in unanounced in the hunting cabin his alaska guide owned. at about 7 feet six rounds seemed to have less than zero effect. luckily his guide came running with a 375HH. after that Kelly switched from 240 gr HP to FMJ for bear.

gunnie
 
Yes it is reasonable that the 240 gr. HP would have lacked adequate penetration even with good shot placement.

And most commercial 44 Mag HP are the dumbed down loads not full SAAMI specs.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a 20 guage slug should pack more power than a .44 mag or a desert eagle. That is something to take into account when deciding on what caliber long gun to pick. If i was strolling through bear and moose country i'd take an ak-47.
 
If i was strolling through bear and moose country i'd take an ak-47.
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Unless it is FA and you possess the strength of Thor (and good training), then I think you're toast. That AK needs to be chambered in .375H&H or 45-70. :neener:
 
How about if I used a rifle? I don't really want to get a 375 but how about a 30-06 with heavy bullets?
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I know people up here who use 30-06 to hunt bear (with some really hot handloads), but I think most people would consider it on the light side for close range bear defense.

If i was strolling through bear and moose country i'd take an ak-47.
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Bear attacks almost always occur in conditions of pretty limited visibility and at close range. Given the speed of a bear, you're only getting a shot off -- if you're lucky -- so whatever a full mag dump from an AK might do to a bear is usually going to be irrelevant.
 
you were right at first posting!!!

Readyrod,

..."How about if I used a rifle? I don't really want to get a 375 but how about a 30-06 with heavy bullets?"...

there was nothing wrong with the 45/70 you originally mentioned. unless you are wanting to use the same iron for extended range hunting. also, the ancient 45/70 is actually better for stopping an enraged brownie than most all of the high velocity smaller caliber magnum chamberings. same due to better straight line penetration characteristics of slow, heavy lead slugs. especially with some of the newer fandactory loadings to hit the market lately.

a lever action is almost always faster to cycle than a bolt. sure there are those who practice from dusk till dawn and can manipulate bolt actions at speeds that will embarrass mere mortals with semi-auto 5.56x45mm AR-15's. but can you afford that much time and ammo? also, the 375HH is based on the longest hunting rifle action i have ever shot. one needs to be carefull when pulling back the bolt, lest they shouldst bleedeth their nose.

as advised by other posters before, the garrett 420-GR SUPERHARDCAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1650-FPS.

this is not +P ammo, and is within SAAMI pressure requirements.

pls see:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/new1.asp

NOT wallet friendly ammo, but niether is another rifle. the same could be said about a chopper ride to the local, or in your proposed far north back packing scenario, not so local ER. this assuming you live through the event, AND are found by a door-to-door tundra fertilizer salesman. who happens to own and carry a satellite phone.

it is still my opinion that for strictly bad breath range self defence, the 12ga pump with slugs is a poor man's 458, and cycles much faster for all of us non-overachievers.

gunnie
 
One of my party this past year used a 375 Ruger on a black bear with Hornady ammo and it still ran 50 yds before piling up, and it was a solid heart shot! They are tough!
 
One of my party this past year used a 375 Ruger on a black bear with Hornady ammo and it still ran 50 yds before piling up, and it was a solid heart shot! They are tough!
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Same thing happen commonly for whitetail and other lesser creatures...heart shot is not an instant drop guarantee...only a CNS is..

In Eastern Wa last year a guy shot broadside a Coyote with a 257 Roberts that blew a hole you could put your arm through..heart and both lungs gone....it still run away and he had to track him....
 
I guess it's just hard to get away from the short range wallop of a 12 gauge with slugs. Pump actions are fast too. I saw a youtube of a military guy shooting a pump 12 gauge and at first I thought it was a semi auto he was so fast. Of course he practiced a lot but it was impressive.
On the other hand I've seen some pretty fast lever action shooters and just can't help thinking that a lot of 44mag hits would do a lot of damage. Of course a lot of 12 gauge slugs or 45-70 would do even more damage I guess, and it is for self protection.
 
I have always used my dads 450 Marlin and have been very happy with the results.

I then carry a .44 for backup, as I don't want to wind up as the meal.
 
Most of the pawn shops up here in northern VA have everything priced high.

I went into one in wood bridge and they were trying to push a mosin nagant for 950.00.

Even if was one of those "sniper" versions, you can get the same gun for about 79.00
 
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