Shots fired: Need non biased hd advice

[thegreatwrzesinski]

OK, Yesterday I was sitting on my couch sitting on my computer when shots rang out across the street. instincts took over and I gathered the misses and the pup and put as many walls between us and the shots as possible...at this point I realized I had nothing to defend myself with...I am debating between two options.

My first option is a Mossberg 590 12g with an 18.5" barrel and a side folding stock for extra maneuverability.

The second would be to get two Hi Point C9's with hollow points.

Both of them would have a laser sight mounted on them for quick target acquisition [in the dark it can be difficult to line up your sights and a stray bullet could mean an unintended casualty]

First thing's first, if you are a Hi Point basher don't bother to comment,

over penetration is a concern, there are two nice old ladies next to me and I would hate to be the reason that they moved.

also the misses would need to be able to handle it confidently, she is a smaller framed lady but she isnt tiny.

portability is a concern too, the shotgun would have a side folding stock to maximize portability but the option to fold out the stock for added stability.

she would also like it to make the bad guy stop on the first shot.

the c9 can handle up to +p ammunition which generates the pressure wave of a .40 while keeping ammunition prices down [cost is a concern for me]

the mossberg, well...can shoot 000 buck, which is like a handful of .38 bullets...but then again with the over penetration issue...one miss could turn a good day into a very bad day for somebody


any advice is helpful

THANK YOU FOR READING!

 

[rfurtkamp]

Skip the laser, especially the low-priced budget deals. This isn't an 'Hi points suck' observation but rather that the types of low-cost lasers included with the guns are toys at best.

If you absolutely, positively must use the laser, practice extensively with it.

But based on what you're saying here, both in terms of selections and reaction to a panic event and looking for a one shot stop, your first step should be to slow down.

It sounds like you could benefit a great deal from a NRA (or equivalent) basic defensive shooting class.

If you must buy a Hi-Point, don't bother with two. Don't bother with the bells and cheap laser whistles. Get the one. Spend that extra money from the second on ammo, range time, and training while you research something that's suited for the task at hand, or look used or surplus or budget on something better. Two C9s with lasers get you into much better territory cost-wise if you're looking at one gun.

 

[thegreatwrzesinski]

the laser doesnt have to be dead on accurate, maybe 15 feet, a flashlight would help the same, just something to project a general "bullet is going here"

I have been shooting for a while, target and IDPA... but I have never had enough money to buy my own weapon, this incident happened and I sold my scooter for the cash to buy one.

I would get two pistols so that both me and her could have one, in the event of our house being broken into I wouldn't want her to have to climb over me to grab the pistol or vice versa while the other woke up, or if there are multiple persons in the house [a few blocks over 8 men broke into a house and tied up the owners while they robbed them] we would have twice the firepower if the need arose.

so you are saying c9 as opposed to shotgun?

 

[tkopp]

The phone is the better implement to grab in a jam. Or make sure the wife is on the phone, so long as she can be level-headed, clear, calm, and collected on the phone with 911. As to your armament, either solution would be fine. Sounds like you're urban, you shouldn't have to hold off armed commandos for half an hour while police gather a posse. I'm partial to the shotgun, but all the female friends I've introduced to firearms were immediately more comfortable with handguns and were surprisingly good with them at first blush.

 

[Shadow 7D]

for home defense, the shotgun is king, it is close, it is few rounds, and you arn't lugging the thing every where.

However in you situation, you probably would benefit best by taking the NRA class and getting more familiar with your gun, and also taking the time to discuss with your sig. other how to respond to an emergency like you experienced yesterday.

One more question, did you call the cops?
the cops back home had a saying, you can outrun us, but you'll never beat the radio. communicating with the police is what you want, as you can only do very little, so much, and what you need and want is back up, the cops.

 

[FROGO207]

I have to agree with the NEED to slow down. FWIW the panic decision is at best iffy. If you have been shooting a handgun then the best bet is to stick with this. Easier to train the SO if you already are proficient with one. I would recommend a revolver first as the reliability of your brain AND ease of operation with sleep induced fuzzy thoughts will equal a good response. Try some out at the range. Both of you!! Get what both of you feel comfortable with--357 w/38 SPL loads = inexpensive. Then practice, practice live fire, practice with your eyes closed and snap caps, then more live fire. when the revolver becomes one of your body parts it will become automatic. A light would be good, actually better than a laser IMO, you want to blind the BG and gain the upper hand FAST. There are more on here with more experience than I with this type of problem and the will chime in soon. Do this once and do it correctly.

 

[squinty]

How about a "bump in the night" bag? Get a messenger bag or fanny pack or some such with home defense kit in it. Extra cell phone, flashlight, small first aid kit or bandanna (bandages), extra set of keys, maybe a small knife &/or multitool, pepper spray...and a handgun with speedloaders or extra mag. Lot's of bag options that have dedicated holster compartments, or just buy one at wal-mart and improvise. If you shoot IDPA, get the sort of handgun you use for competition. (How do you shoot IDPA without owning a gun? Do you rent or use somebody else's? I don't know the first thing about IDPA.) $500 +/- for a glock, less for a Ruger. Handguns have the advantage of portability, and can be wielded more deftly in interior spaces like apartments, stairwells, hallways, etc. The stuff in the bag should be dedicated to the home defense/bug out role, for instance the flashlight in the bag should be in addition to whatever flashlight you keep around the house for utility purposes. Likewise the car keys should be duplicates of the keys you carry around with you, the cell phone should be an extra (cheap pre-paid maybe) not the one you carry and use every day, etc.

The advantage of the bag is that you'll have some essential home defense/home escape gear all in one handy place, instead of groping for stuff when you're in a hurry. A messenger bag or small knapsack can go from room to room with you, or rest comfortably on a nightstand or draped over your headboard while you sleep. Maybe a coded safe or lockbox if you have younger kids around the house - bag stays either in your sight or in the lockbox at all times.
If you don't do any of that, still do discuss emergency plans with the family, like pick a room to run too in case of a break-in or another mysterious gunshot across the street, what to do in case of fire, tornado, injury etc.

I don't think there's any cure for the risk of overpenetration. Whatever sufficiently penetrates a BG will penetrate plenty of walls. Pick a room to bug into, taking into account which direction you'll have to shoot to defend that room. What's beyond it?

I'm not a hi-point basher, but I think for the cost of two C9 pistols I'd rather get one Glock 19 or 30, or a good 38/357 revolver, or an XD. Haven't shot Hi-Points, except to try a few rounds out of a buddy's pistol at the range once. I've heard good things about them but I'm not sure of the long term durability of the brand. Nice thing about an inexpensive gun is if you ever have to use it, it's easier to replace - guns used in self defense often go to police evidence rooms for a long time.

 

[Holiday Rambler]

Not that I'm an expert, but there's an old saying I really like about this situation. Which is, the first time somebody shoots at you, one of two things happen. You either live or you die. The next time somebody shoots at you, you know what to do.

That thing you learned to do is usually to hide behind whatever solid thing is available (even a table leg), and choose your actions from there. At least that's how I see it.

In your case I wouldn't think twice. Grab the shotgun if it's handy. Best self defense weapon around if one is handy.

 

[Blakenzy]

My lowly opinion: Get what ever you feel comfortable with. So long as it's reliable, it doesn't really matter.

The important stuff is being mentaly prepared and aware, have a solid plan(s) and getting enough practice to be surgical with your weapon of choice. The tool is just the iceing on the cake. You really have to get out to a range with your wife and handle &fire a good selection of guns to see what you will both feel capable of mastering. Maybe it will be a 12ga, maybe it will be a .32.. Either way you have to practice, practice, practce.

On a side note, Hi-Points are reported to be trustworthy guns. They are ugly though, and don't get the love more expensive brands get, but whatever.

 

[rfurtkamp]

the laser doesnt have to be dead on accurate, maybe 15 feet, a flashlight would help the same, just something to project a general "bullet is going here"

At 15 feet, you're already way, way, way too close.

I have been shooting for a while, target and IDPA

What would your IDPA or target shooting pals tell you if you seriously mentioned using a Hi-Point with a laser for home defense, looking for one shot stops?

Something just doesn't add up here, I'm sorry. It's a hell of a first post. You're worried about collateral damage yet it's ok to use an imprecise instrument (the beam of a flashlight) as an aiming point. Going to harp again on the need for some actual training and practice here.

Two guns is nice, a good plan to work towards - but think of it this way: in an emergency, would you rather have one that you know for a fact works and have had money to train with, or two marginal, absolute lowest bidder items with toy accessories?
I'd go with the shotgun if forced between the two choices but skip the side-folder. And if cash is as tight as you're mentioning, no need to spend it on a 590. Get yourself the cheapest, most reliable used 12g pump you can find locally (or one of the Norinco copies of something) for $100-150 - and spend the rest on range time and practice.

In the event you need the gun (and I'm not saying you have to buy Brand X or spend Y here), it will be the most critical and important moment in your life up until that moment.

If you absolutely, positively must have the C9, do you want to trust your aim to what isn't really a step up from a $3 keychain laser, using the absolute lowest priced bullet-thrower on the market to generally function? You're not talking about a range toy where it's OK if the item fails or is garbage after a couple weeks.

And all this is multiplied by the fact you want someone else to be able to use these items as well - they'll need familiarization and practice and some training as well.

 

[shockwave]

My first option is a Mossberg 590 12g with an 18.5" barrel and a side folding stock for extra maneuverability.

That sounds like a plan to me. In fact, that's what I did, except I went with the 500. Some particular reason you need the 590? Eventually, you'll want to have both shotgun and a handgun for a HD package.

 

[hso]

Try to restore all that disbelief that we suspend when we watch movies and read fiction.

Spend some time reading in Strategies and Tactics on weapons, penetration myths, features, and tactics for the home. You'll learn that pistol rounds go through layers of building materials, folding stocks aren't needed and that the smart person rounds the family up and forts up instead of searching the house when trouble comes.

 

[IlikeSA]

I'd get a handgun and carry it on my body, that way it was always there. The shotgun may be in the other room when you need it most. Not trying to sway your handgun choice, but a good revolver can be as inexpensive as the hi-point. Just something to consider.

 

[Patriotme]

Get the Hi Point. Leave it on the nightstand, in a drawer, in a safe or carry it on you. You have that option.
The shotgun WILL be left in the corner or the closet furthest away from you when you actually do need it. A shotgun rules for self defense....if you have it in your hands when it's needed. Face it, you're not going to carry a shotgun from room to room once the novelty wears off and your neighborhood quiets down for a few weeks.
At least with the pistol you have more options of where and how (is your wife going to check the mail with a shotgun slung over her shoulder?) you can carry it and it's more likely to be nearby when needed.
I've shot a few Hi Points that friends own. They were all butt ugly but reliable. There's nothing wrong with them and a budget gun that works is better than no gun while you're saving up for something trendier.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I suggest the shotgun, but without unnecessary expense of the folding stock.

 

[mothermopar]

If only one gun: 12 gauge. 00 buck is preferred, but any buckshot will do nicely. 20 inch barrel and extended tube capacity. Keep some slugs handy in case you need to reach out. A folding stock is nice if BOTH of you can shoot it (recoil). Consider reduced recoil shells... Just as effective on crooks as 3" magnums.

Two guns? Shotgun and a reliable handgun. A revolver if you won't practice alot (more reliable and ease of use). 38 cal or bigger. What you both can shoot well.

 

[gofastman]

I would get a 4oz can of FOX pepperspray and a shotgun with a short barrel

 

[Sam1911]

I'll second the shotgun idea, if you aren't very proficient with handguns. I'd skip the folding stock too. It won't make it more "manuverable," just more easily stored in small spaces, which probably isn't a very important issue. Further, most folding stocks are much less comfortable/natural to shoot with than a standard fixed stock, and firing with the stock folded is exactly 93.475% less effective* than with a full stock.

-Sam



* Give or take ~50%.

 

[benEzra]

the laser doesnt have to be dead on accurate, maybe 15 feet, a flashlight would help the same, just something to project a general "bullet is going here"

The problem with cheap lasers isn't lack of accuracy, but rather lack of reliability. The problem is flimsy, corrosion-prone battery and switch contacts, substandard wiring, and/or poorly soldered junctions.

Of the two choices you list, the shotgun is more effective; the handgun is more portable and easier to store securely (you can get a small handgun-sized lockbox at Walmart). But consider what you are most proficient with, your storage/access requirements (kids in the house?), and whatnot, and let those factors guide your decision.

 

[Cosmoline]

Forget the lasers. I'd suggest a Mossberg 500 with a standard stock. The folder is for transporting it. You don't shoot it folded, at least not with ordinary loads.

 

[mljdeckard]

A couple of things.

First, get this overpenetration concern out of your head. In real life, EVERY projectile that is good enough to save your life has a high likelihood of overpenetration. And not all of them are going to hit the target. The thing that keeps your neighbors from getting hit is planning ahead of time. Set up your house so that the likely lanes of fire are not in line with things you don't want to hit.

I am a hi-point hater, but that's beside the point. Are you talking about getting two of them to use at the same time? Or one for you and one for backup and your wife? Using two pistols is.......silly.

While all adult females can be trained to use a shotgun, I don't necessarily expect you to drop one on her to start with. I am a long-gun guy. Handguns are strictly backup to be used when there is absolutely no time to get something bigger. To that effect, my primary is a Remington 870, and my wife's primary is an M-1 carbine. It's not the direction you were looking, but a carbine, even an AR or AK carbine has a clear advantage in stopping power over any handgun.

 

[thegreatwrzesinski]

thank you all for your posts! I am proficient at using both a shotgun and a handgun, I was blessed to have friends who had money and loved guns so I used theirs when we went shooting, I never really liked punching paper standing still so we went to the salvation army and got a bunch of clothes, stuffed them with newspaper and shot at them [standing, moving, hiding, etc...] on a friends ranch...it just came naturally to me.

Yes the second pistol would be for my wife and not for a backup.

would two people with guns [assuming we get out to the range and practice idpa/pp] be better than just one with a big gun?

 

[thegreatwrzesinski]

also 15 feet is about the distance from the hallway to the front door/back door.

and the reason I would like a 590 as opposed to just a 500 is that I have an m9 bayonet that I could affix to it for those "oh snap" moments [15 feet can be closed very quickly]

Yes I did call the police about the incident and I filed a report.

 

[Templar223]

Okay, I'll pass on the Hi-point bashing.

I will say that shotgun configuration you're talking about isn't very suitable for home defense use.

The two Hi-points? Well, you've got them, so I reckon those are your back-up to the shotgun.

Advice point #1: Take some training on the handgun. Even an NRA Basic Pistol is a good place to start. Personal Protection would be even better. Given your stable of firearms, I'm guessing you need to keep things inexpensive and these NRA classes are affordable and can be very good to excellent if you get a good instructor.

Advice point #2: If the shots are fired across the street, stay low and behind as much cover / quasi-cover as possible. Get your piece in case they come running to your house in the unlikely event it becomes a mobile gun battle.

Advice point #3: Put a proper fixed stock on your shotgun.

You asked for advice. I'm a 12-year practicing instructor in pistol and urban rifle. Having said that, if you're not satisfied with this good advice, it comes with a money back guarantee.

John


ETA: I re-read your initial post. Are you saying you're considering purchase of a pair of Hi-Points with lasers? If you haven't already bought them, don't! Get yourself a functional pump gun with 00-buck and some slugs - reduced recoil preferred.

 

[PH/CIB]

If you are thinking of getting two High Points one for you and one for your Wife, I would suggest getting one High Point and one not expensive pump self defense shotgun. You could teach your wife to shoot both, but I am guessing she will be comfortable with the handgun, and you as an IDPA shooter have said you are already proficient with either the shotgun or the handgun.

I have Crimson Trace lasers and they are a great tool for someone who does not know how to shoot well with iron sights, however they do not illuminate the target, and you must identify the target so I would recommend a good flashlight blinking it on and off and moving at the same time, with light you can access either the iron sights or the laser if you get one.

Sounds like you got a pup, dogs are the best bang for the buck as far as a portable alarm system giving you early warning to get your gun.

A good alarm system is probably cost prohibitive to you, but installing motion detector lights is cheap and easy. If I were you I would move if that is a possibility. There is an old saying, "If you can never go to a Man always let a Man come to you, the first thing the eye sees is movement." You don't mention any kids, so don't clear the house, call the police and you and your wife stay in a pre selected ambush positon and let the intruder(s) enter the kill zone.