Should a firearms instructor shoot in front of students?

[David E]

I've found that there are two basic thoughts on this.

A friend of mine told me he just was appointed as a firearms instructor for his dept. The topic of shooting in front of the students came up. He immediately said that he and the other instructors NEVER shoot in front of the students.

Their thoughts are, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. If you screw up, you'll diminish your standing as an instructor and possibly lose the student's interest in listening to you.

The other side of the coin is, the instructor should be able to perform the skill(s) he expects his students to perform. If HE can't do it, how can he be a suitable teacher?

I'm not talking about egos between a hot-shot student and the instructor demanding a one upsmanship drama, or having the instructor "show off" for his students by presenting a dazzling display of exhibition shooting.

Let's say the instructor in either example is a good teacher/communicator.

What are your thoughts and why?

 

[postalnut25]

The instructor should demonstrate the technique that he is trying to teach. Breaking down exactly what he is doing, and why he is doing it. Some people need visual as well as verbal instruction to learn a concept.

 

[BADUNAME37]

How can one even claim to be an instructor if the 'students' don't even see him fire a weapon?

In driver-ed in 1972, the instructor drove the car, then let me drive the car.

In fact, I don't know of any circumstance where the "instructor" did not do the very thing he was instructing - to illustrate just how it is to be done.

 

[TheProf]

Don't confuse the instructor's present abilities with his knowledge base. You can have a great football coach that is 65 years old. His present abilities is no match for the 25 year old rookies. But he may have a wealth of knowledge base that the young rookie can benefit from.

The same is true of boxing coaches. The same is true also of gun coaches (instructors).
Make sense?

I would rather learn from an old gun fighter who is blind in one eye and can't see in the other than a young buck that is still wet behind the ears.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

A friend of mine told me he just was appointed as a firearms instructor for his dept. The topic of shooting in front of the students came up. He immediately said that he and the other instructors NEVER shoot in front of the students.

Their thoughts are, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. If you screw up, you'll diminish your standing as an instructor and possibly lose the student's interest in listening to you.

The other side of the coin is, the instructor should be able to perform the skill(s) he expects his students to perform. If HE can't do it, how can he be a suitable teacher?

I'm not talking about egos between a hot-shot student and the instructor demanding a one upsmanship drama, or having the instructor "show off" for his students by presenting a dazzling display of exhibition shooting.

Actually from the sound of it, you are talking about the ego of the instructors who don't want to shoot in front of students. It is one thing for an instructor not to demostrate something because the instructor can't do that particular task. It is another thing for the instructor to refuse to demonstrate any aspect of what s/he is teaching.

If the instructors don't ever demonstrate, I fail to see how they can be very effective instructors.

Don't confuse the instructor's present abilities with his knowledge base. You can have a great football coach that is 65 years old. His present abilities is no match for the 25 year old rookies. But he may have a wealth of knowledge base that the young rookie can benefit from.

All the coaches I ever had could either demonstrate what they were teaching or had other instructors that could.

However, the OP isn't talking about geriatric instructors who have lost their physical capabilities to perform their jobs. He is talking about guys who supposedly can perform the tasks just fine, but are worried about screwing up in front of their students because it will supposedly make the instructors look bad.

 

[AirForceShooter]

In the AirForce I almost never saw an instructor carry a weapon.
Never saw one shoot during the formal training sessions.

They were there to teach YOU, not on an ego trip.

AFS

 

[Carl N. Brown]

12 votes 7 posts. Would be nice to hear all reasons even if they are good or bad.

There are good arguments both ways and it took some reflection to vote.

Learning includes making mistakes and learning from them. The idea that a teacher is a perfect creature who makes no mistakes does not help students learn. On the other hand, if the instructor is a Camp Perry National Match Expert it can be intimidating and undermine the student's confidence.

For a department it may or may not be different, but in the handgun carry permit class I took, the instructor did not demonstrate shooting himself (certification included 4 hours class time, written exam, and qualification on the firing range with the instructor acting as rangemaster, observing and helping about 12 shooters).

Overall, I believe the instructor is more effective if he demonstates shooting with the class, but that may depend on class size.

 

[shockwave]

Don't confuse the instructor's present abilities with his knowledge base. You can have a great football coach that is 65 years old.

There is risk of confusion here. There are different people with different skills that we call "coach," "instructor," "trainer," etc.

A coach is trained in helping a student reach his or her maximum potential. A coach is not expected to be able to physically outperform the student.

A trainer is expected to be able to demonstrate the skills under discussion. If you ever watch a Magpul Dynamics video, or see how they teach at Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, the trainers/instructors are fully able to demo the technique under discussion.

Then, you have what I'd call "masters" or experts at the limit of the art. Jerry Miculek would be an example. In his case, he appears to be a good instructor. That isn't necessarily so for others. Just because you can perform well doesn't mean you can teach.

So to address the OP's question, heck yeah the instructor had better be able to demonstrate a technique. Unlike a coach, a trainer/instructor is expected to have that skill. I don't understand why such a person would be hesitant to execute a technique in front of a class.

 

[RobMoore]

Sometimes seeing is believing.

 

[The Bushmaster]

No! He is the instructor.

 

[Manco]

Their thoughts are, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. If you screw up, you'll diminish your standing as an instructor and possibly lose the student's interest in listening to you.

Then don't screw up, or show them why you screwed up so that they can learn from mistakes that even experienced shooters can make. While I think there are valid arguments against instructors shooting in front of their students, screwing up is not one of them. The main potential drawback is discouraging some students because you're so much better than them, but I think they'd expect that, and would benefit overall from seeing somebody demonstrate the appropriate techniques and what kind of results can be expected--something to strive for if the instructor is a skilled shooter in addition to being a good teacher, or something to try to exceed if the instructor's level of skill is mediocre.

The main exception I'd make is for authoritarian environments (such as military and certain lines of work) in which the instructor must command absolute respect. With civilians, however, a more affable, egalitarian approach would generally work better (it might with soldiers, too, with regard to shooting, but there are other things to consider).

The other side of the coin is, the instructor should be able to perform the skill(s) he expects his students to perform. If HE can't do it, how can he be a suitable teacher?

"Those who can't do, teach"? I don't think this principle applies to shooting (if it applies to anything, really) unless the instructor is physically disabled. "Do as I say and not as I do" and "I can't do this no matter how much I've practiced but I'll show you how you can" aren't exactly the most convincing and encouraging ways to approach instruction.

I'm not talking about egos between a hot-shot student and the instructor demanding a one upsmanship drama, or having the instructor "show off" for his students by presenting a dazzling display of exhibition shooting.

Instructors who are skilled at actual teaching can command respect while being humble and focused on their students' learning. In analogy, I've had good teachers in academic schools who brought out the best in everybody, and I've had a few others who were insecure to the point where they'd compete with students to win, which could be very discouraging to students.

 

[Nasty]

Airforceshooter - I don't know where you were stationed, but under TAC, every instructor was armed on a daily basis (as required by regulation as we were not only teaching, but also standing guard over the 25 or so M16's, 8 M60's or whatever we were training on that day). No instructor *ever* went unarmed when the armory was open, no instructor was *ever* the only instructor present in a classroom or on a range and no instructor was *ever* unprepared to demonstrate at Expert level the marksmanship fundamentals we were teaching. If any instructor ever failed to qualify at least at the Expert level, they were removed from the training rotation and given alternate duties until they requalified as per regulation.

I spent almost 20 years in the classroom and on the line, and even after becoming NCOIC, still had a regular rotation both in the classroom and on the line. If what you say were true, that NCOIC should have had charges pressed and removed from the position for dereliction of duty.

We did not routinely shoot with or in front of the students, but would as needed to demonstrate and facilitate their marksmanship development.

As I stated in another post here, every instructor was allocated thousands of rounds of ammunition every month specifically for the purpose of maintaining their own proficiency...if we were to never demonstrate those skills, why would the government expend the resources?

As for the OP post...*Yes*. Any instructor should be prepared, at any time, to demonstrate the requirements for the class they are teaching. In my case, I would still today be prepared to step into, teach, range and demonstrate any of the basic level Marksmanship courses being taught today. In the case of advanced classes which might require movement and agility, I might step down and allow one of the young guns to take the class as I realized at my age that I cannot properly administer those classes.

Not teaching the class is one thing, but assisting, supervising, coaching and supporting the primary instructor is still a valid and valued skill however and would glad to participate at that level.

Any instructor worth his salt would understand that if you take the legs out of the process, the old guys might clean their clocks.

 

[Mr Woody]

In a police department it won't take the officers long to figure out their instructor is full of hot air if he refuses to shoot in front of the students. You don't have to be the best shot but you must be willing to demonstrate how it's done. If the instructors decline to shoot in front of their students it can only be seen as a negative. Much worse than not being the best shot in the room.

I never missed the chance to challenge an instuctor for the best group on the 'little man' in the corner of the B27. Win or loose, it was all for fun.

 

[9mmepiphany]

this question really is deeper that it at first appears.

i would first offer that an instructor who believes that you diminish your standing by shooting poorly in front of students has larger problems than losing their interest.

it has been my experience that many people can instruct, but the number that can teach a shooting skill is much smaller. demonstrating that you can shoot and telling your students "do it like this" isn't very useful to most students. you really have to understand the concepts behind what you are doing and more importantly how students perceive how to do it.

i seldom shoot in front of students to show how it is done. i find that they will try to do what they think i'm doing...convinced that what they just saw is the correct way to do it. this is often seen in mag changes and presentations form the holster

the shooting grip and trigger management (the foundation to shooting well) are very subtle skills which are usually initially perceived incorrectly. what i will do is demonstrate the technique of how i want them to try to do it, slowly explaining correct placement and pressure. then i have them try the technique, correcting along the way. usually when i shoot in front of students, it is to demonstrate that nothing bad will happen to them...the gun jumping out of the hand and hitting them, because they are not using their thumbs to grip.

the other time i'll shoot in front of students, after they have a pretty good idea of what we're trying to accomplish, is when they need a push to go a bit faster and they need to be shown that it really can be done faster without compromising correct technique

i would summarize my stance as being:
1. i don't think an instructor should shoot in front of students to demonstrate his ability or to set a goal for students to try to achieve
2. they should be able to demonstrate the techniques they teach to show that it can be done

 

[jonnyc]

New and young shooters are all excited and their ears tend to shut off. They need to see what to do on the line. They should have gotten a good lecture before they ever get near the firing line.

 

[hmphargh]

I feel like in the arena of firearms, ego always seems to get involved. I would say it is fine for the instructor to demonstrate in front of the students, but be prepared to lose their respect if s/he cannot perform the skill adequately. Saying to NEVER shoot in front of students seems like overkill, but I would certainly not attempt to demonstrate the skill if there was any question in my mind that I could not perform it 100% every time.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

It always makes it easier as a student to see the instructor perform the action first. Some people have a hard time committing to memory a list of actions from verbal command but when they see it performed they can replicate it much easier. I am one of those type of people. I am a visual learner and being able to see the example really helps me learn faster.

 

[230therapy]

The whole point of attending a class is to learn how to DO, not talk about doing.

It's like a university professor who has never worked outside of the education system. I always ask "What good is this? What's it useful for?". The "do'ers" and the "talkers" always differentiate themselves. I now "interview" every professor or instructor prior to attending their course. I check resumes if at all possible. If that resume lacks real experience, I try to find another professor.

Same goes for self-defense shooting. While I don't expect them to have actually shot someone, I do expect them to be able to perform at least to my ability level. Millions of military and police personnel have been trained for fighting by cadre without combat experience. It's great if the person has had combat experience, but not a requirement.

If it's a competition oriented course, then the shooter needs to have direct experience in a similar type of competition. I wouldn't go learn to shoot skeet from a rifle instructor, nor would I go to a skeet coach to learn NRA Bullseye.


An teacher should:

1) Tell them what to do
2) Show them how it's done
3) Demonstrate by shooting the drill
3) Let the student try it
4) Correct as needed during repetitions

Never shooting in front of the students makes me doubt that the instructor has the skill level necessary to be an instructor.

 

[buck460XVR]

He immediately said that he and the other instructors NEVER shoot in front of the students.

Their thoughts are, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. If you screw up, you'll diminish your standing as an instructor and possibly lose the student's interest in listening to you.

If they are responsible for teaching basic fundamentals and technique, and are qualified to do this, how or what could they possibly screw up?

Sounds like they are afraid of being showed up by the students they are trying to teach.

 

[420Stainless]

I've never had formal instruction in any physical activities, so I didn't answer. I think a lot depends on the skill level addressed by the course. If the students are beginners it makes sense to demonstrate the skills directly while training. If the course is for people who are already familiar with the fundamentals, or for advanced students, it may very well make more sense to communicate how a particular skill and the associated drills will be beneficial to them and then let them do all the shooting while observing and offering feedback. For anyone at advanced levels (regardless of the activity) its more important to have an objective observer studying the student's technique and offering advice for improvement. At the very highest levels, the teacher may never have possessed the skills of the student to begin with, but still plays an important role just by communicating what is observed in a manner understood by the student.

But I think beginners need demonstration. Whether from the instructor, or some assistant. Its kind of scary, but I've had a few friends over the years that I didn't even know were gun owners. Started talking to them about shooting only to find out they have a handgun, but are convinced there is something wrong with it because they can't come close to hitting on target. Just me demonstrating to them that their gun was capable was all it took to get them started on the fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control.

 

[hso]

Training is composed of classroom and practical hands-on skills development which requires demonstration of the skill.

Shooting is a physical skill that requires proper technique to be demonstrated to the trainee so they can see the skill properly carried out.

Whether it is the trainer or a video demonstrating the skill it has to be shown to the trainees.

 

[cambeul41]

I didn't vote. I have seen good and poor instruction both ways. I do not believe that there is only one correct answer.

 

[GRIZ22]

The instructor needs to demonstrate what the students are supposed to do. That is not being on an ego trip.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I would say that an instructor seldom shoots in front of his students. I think it's difficult to know when, in the student's mind, the line between demonstrating and showing off has been crossed. The instruction is about the student, not about the instructor.

That said, IME there are exceptions and circumstances in which an instructor would, and should, shoot in front of students.

[1] We do demonstrations with unloaded or "blue" guns, then walk the students through the drill with unloaded guns, then go to live fire. That's the usual. But sometimes it has proved desirable or helpful to perform a live fire demonstration to clarify something.

[2] It is sometimes helpful for an instructor to shoot, with permission, a student's gun, if there's some question about its functioning correctly or the sights being properly regulated.

[3] When I've taught trapshooting, I, or another instructor, would often, at the end of a formal lesson, shoot a round or two with a student. We did this with more advanced students to help them work on things like timing and squad etiquette.

[4] In Massad Ayoob's classes, when it comes time for students to shoot the qualification course, Mas and his assistant instructors shoot the qualification first. (I recently went through this exercise when I was one of Mas' assistants at a class in Arizona.)

 

[Tim Burke]

It depends. I've had good instruction without any demos, but I don't think I've ever had an instructor that would have refused a request for a demonstration.
There is no room for ego on the training range; not for the instructor, and not for the student.