Should a firearms instructor shoot in front of students?

[Averageman]

Outright refuse to do it, get hesitant when it gets to the point of put up or shut up and you lose all credibility.
Do this is the Military and the whole class immeaditaly turns off at that point and the rest is a waste of time. Do it in a Civilian Class and I would personally ask for a refund of my money.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I find that if you have your own ego under control (as a range instructor), you have NOTHING to lose, and everything to gain. If you are a good shot, you not only demonstrate technique, you have the opportunity to teach humility, self control, and a pleasant spirit of drive and encouragement. Suppose you are VERY good. You can play it down, telling your student(s) how you got to that level, how often you shoot, etc. They can gauge their ability, and where they want to be, against the range officer's level. If there are shooters that can equal or better the range officer, then the range officer can set the mood for accepting the same, and recognizing the students' talent in a positive fashion. The range officer teaches more than just technique. He can contribute his take on ethics, morality, "esprit", and positive interaction among shooters. When I have taught, I always get some shooting in to demonstrate that I can do what I'm telling them to do. I think that it is very important to establish credibility in a class, such as shooting techniques, where "hands on", demonstrative actions are being taught and asked for. I have been humbled by some good shooters, and I always acknowledge them in front of the other shooters. I have never had an exceptional shooter act like he knew it all, and be a problem. Even the best know they have something else to learn from another. I am sorry to say that some people become range officers BEFORE they reach a suitable level of competence themselves. Now that is ego talking. Would you pay to take a class from a green or brown belt karate instructor, when you can take a class from a black belt? There are no such designators or controls in certifications for instructors in most shooting schools or classes. A lot of people don't just sit back and accept or assume the guy at the front of the class is qualified, so it HELPS if an instructor can "back up his mouth", if need be. You CAN decline a demonstration, but I think you damage your credibility, as if you have something to hide..........

 

[9mmepiphany]

the important thing about teaching is not to make it about what you can do but about what the student can/should learn.

sometimes the best way to show a student it isn't their gun that is incapable of putting rounds on target, is by taking their gun and shooting it...you have to be a bit careful about this to not overly embarrass them. i much prefer to talk them through a shot to show them that they can do it themselves.

one thing i seem to always have to demonstrate is:
1. how to manage a DA shot
2. how a DA shot isn't less accurate
3. how a DA first shot from the holster isn't any slower than a SA first shot
...for some reason, no one wants to believe this until they've seen it

 

[Onward Allusion]

If the instructor can't follow his/her own instructions or demonstrate technique, then they should not teach the class.

Keep in mind, when the instructor shoots, it doesn't mean they have to get 10x every shot with 1/2" groups at 25 yards. They just have to demonstrate the proper form and safety. Being an instructor is a heck of a lot more than being able to skip rope on one feet while drinking from a soda can. It's about passing on knowledge and experience.

Of course the instructor should at least be able to hit the black with groups of a few inches from 7 yards, however.

David E
Should a firearms instructor shoot in front of students?
I've found that there are two basic thoughts on this.

A friend of mine told me he just was appointed as a firearms instructor for his dept. The topic of shooting in front of the students came up. He immediately said that he and the other instructors NEVER shoot in front of the students.

Their thoughts are, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. If you screw up, you'll diminish your standing as an instructor and possibly lose the student's interest in listening to you.

The other side of the coin is, the instructor should be able to perform the skill(s) he expects his students to perform. If HE can't do it, how can he be a suitable teacher?

I'm not talking about egos between a hot-shot student and the instructor demanding a one upsmanship drama, or having the instructor "show off" for his students by presenting a dazzling display of exhibition shooting.

Let's say the instructor in either example is a good teacher/communicator.

What are your thoughts and why?

 

[nyresq]

In my agency you dont get selected to go to firearms instructor school unless you are in the top 5% of shooters to begin with. We are expected to qualify at 95% or better every quarter. When we qualify, we jump on the line with the regular guys and shoot the same course side by side.

When it comes to teaching, I will show step by step and then run through one full evolution so they can see what it is supposed to look like. If I am having a bad day and I don't hit the X every time I believe it shows them everyone is human and even some of the best instructors can pull a shot.
As someone who has always been a decent shot I viewed instructors who wouldnt shoot against a student as full of crap.

"Put up or shut up" is my view as well as the guys I work with at the range. If you're afraid of screwing up, thats ego, not instructor skills. You can correct yourself in front of students and they will respect that.
But then again, if you really are just a avarage shooter, maybe you shouldnt be trying to improve others and instead just worry about yourself.

 

[NoAlibi]

Show me what you expect me to do. I don't have a problem if you are a coach and can't do it yourself, but please get someone to demonstrate it for you and then critique it. You don't have to be a one man show, unless, of course, you are teaching alone then you should be able to demonstrate it.

When I was in the police academy I was new to revolvers (We were issued 191A1s as pilots in the Corps). After the initial classroom instruction our assigned instructor stepped up to the 7 yard line and put 6 rounds from his S&W model 10 in the X-ring of a B-27 target - without fanfare or attitude.

Then we recruits got a chance to show our stuff. Not coming up to his abillity, I for one listened a LOT more closely as he continued to instruct as I believe the other recruits did as well. He gave no further demonstrations, but thinking back I would like to have seen what he could do at the 50 yard line!

Several years later I became a police range instructor and I was expected to start off new recruits the same way that I was instructed - the firearms unit wanted you to demonstrate that it could be done well, again without fanfare or attitude. After having a bit of shooting experience I can tell you putting 6 rounds in the X-ring at 7 yards is not particularly hard, but it is impressive to a new shooter and goes a long way keeping their attention.

 

[uspJ]

I think it depends on what exactly is being taught. If it is principles of marksmanship, firearms safety and things of that nature then little demonstration is needed imho. If it were more advanced techniques such as moving while shooting, shooting from cover etc then demonstration is needed to fully explain what they are doing, how they are doing it and why they are doing it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

After having a bit of shooting experience I can tell you putting 6 rounds in the X-ring at 7 yards is not particularly hard, but it is impressive to a new shooter and goes a long way keeping their attention.

it is rather funny how that impresses folks...especially on a B27 target with it's huge X-ring.

i introduced a gal to stance, grip and trigger pull once and i could see her husband was somewhat wary when i told him we wouldn't need more than 50 rounds. 20 rounds and about an hour later, she could print about a 2" group at 7 yards...granted it wasn't very fast, but the range only allowed one shot per sec anyway

 

[leadcounsel]

Yes an instructor should demostrate proper technique. If he's prone to 'screw up' he ought find a different role.

 

[Nasty]

One of my best memories was how some of the Security Police guys (most being biug guys) would complain during a portion of our M60 course when they had to advance, use the bipod, etc...

"It's too heavy and jumps too much."

I had one of my best instructors do the course (qualifying Expert) so they could see what we were asking them to do...

She was 22 years old, 4'10" tall and about 95 pounds.

They all shut up and qualified.

Sometimes a demo is what is really needed.

 

[strambo]

An instructor should be teaching skills well below his skill level. So, there shouldn't be any real risk. The idea is to demonstrate the performance to the standard you are teaching and expect of the students. Showing off will only make them think they can't get that good and could bite you in the rear anyway.

An instructor doesn't have to demo everything if it doesn't fit or flow well to do so. As a more advanced student in something (shooting, hand to hand, whatever), I want to see them demo at their level just to see how high the bar is, it doesn't get me down. As a beginner in a task, seeing high level skill is too daunting, makes it easy to dismiss as something "I can never do."

Demo-ing typical firearms drills for defensive shooting at a realistic speed and accuracy should be easy for any instructor worth anything. We aren't talking about a record time on an IPSC stage (if we are talking a high-skill competition course..then the instructor needs to be an IPSC GM to demo at that level).

 

[Mags]

Thise who can't; teach. J/K

 

[sidheshooter]

I am firmly in the camp of "the instructor darn well better be able to shoot".

Let me be blunt: I realize that teaching, coaching, and performing a technique yourself are three different skill sets. That said, in this day of competitive, everyone-has-a-shingle-out training options, we all can be picky about studying from someone who has a game in all three sets. No need for compromise.

Speaking of good instructors, I have had the fortune of graduating (top of class, both written and shooting, I'd add, but I digress for ego's sake... heh..) from LFI under Mas Ayoob, and he spoke directly, and with typical eloquence, to this subject, in class.

He makes all of his instructors (himself included) shoot the qualifier for the class, before the students have to; whether at speed, double or triple. He's very clear that it's not about ego, or proving how good he is, or how good Greg Hamilton is, or whomever is in attendance that day; it's about saving lives. Mas believes in the concept of modeling, as in, show the students exactly how it should go, so they have a template to rely on for their own success.

The last class I took was on Friday; you can bet that the instructor (in this case, Ed Santos) shot in front of the class. Not a lot, and not every drill (this was a third level class in his school, so prior student knowledge was assumed) but for any new drill, he pointed out the correct way and the pitfalls. He also wasn't afraid to use my personal gun for one drill (shooting a one-hole cloverleaf) to convince me to work a bit harder on my basics...

 

[sidheshooter]

I hasten to add that I am no armed pro, and no firearms instructor, myself, so I don't have a dog in this hunt-other than as an amateur/student/dilletante (despite the hopefully tongue-in-cheek bravado in my above post).

As a student/enthusiast though, I'm only going to pay my hard earned money out to folks who can both teach and do. They're out there.

JMHO.

 

[tomaz45]

As both an instructor, and a student, I can say that there is a time and place for "demonstrating". By and large, I do not spend my training dollars to see the instructor shoot. I have invested my time and money to be instucted, and I wouldn't invest unless I was confident in that instuctor's ability. I do not believe in wasting my student's time and money likewise. However, there have been those situations when a "demonstration " becomes the most timely way to move the class along. I have had the pleasure of attending trainings by some of the "Best Names" in this field, and have seldom seen them shoot.
Tomaz45

 

[9mmepiphany]

Thise who can't; teach. J/K

I'm only going to pay my hard earned money out to folks who can both teach and do. They're out there.

i've found that there is actually more truth in the statement that "Many who can, can't teach"

it would be like asking Jordan or Koby to teach you to play basketball like they do...they can't. their skill came naturally to them and since they don't know how they do it, they can't understand why you would not be able to also. that's why the best pro football coaches are usually linemen, rather than the "skill" position players.

there really are some very good shooters out there who can also teach, i've taken classes from both kinds. one could show you what he did, while the other could understand what you were doing and show you how and why you should change it to shoot better.

a good teacher will always learn something from their students about how to be a better teacher. one of my first eye openers was teaching a 10 year old girl how to run her Sig 225 at speed. the mag changes were a major hurdle as her thumb was too short to reach the mag release...i never again accepted that excuse from a student

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

How many of us would have like to taken a class from Jeff Cooper before he left us (I'm sure many have, but this is for the rest of us)? Now, how many would have like to have taken a class from Jeff Cooper where we also got to see him shoot? Not that he could or would have shot a smiley face in the target at 25 yards, but just a simple demonstration of any particular drill..............

 

[RobMoore]

asking Jordan or Koby to teach you to play basketball like they do...they can't. their skill came naturally to them

I don't know what their training regimen was like growing up, so I can't refute this statement, but I would not assume that you are correct. I assume they achieved their level of skill through strenuous practice and discipline, just like the stars of pistol shooting such as Max Michel Jr and Rob Leatham did. They don't shoot at a Grand Master level because "shooting came naturally", they got there because of hard work. They are also exceptional instructors (one I've heard about, the other I've experienced).

 

[Fred Fuller]

Number one, folks, we're focused primarily on armed citizens here in S&T- not LE or .mil.

Number two, of the classes I've been in- all with a student population primarily consisting of armed citizens, with a few LE and .mil along for the ride- every instructor has had plenty to do for the duration of the class TEACHING. There hasn't been time, or any demonstrated need, for a proof of instructor ability to shoot in any class I've had so far.

I don't doubt that any of the instructors I have trained with can shoot, and quite well, if necessary. There have been a couple of 'side matches' at various events where all participants, trainers and students alike, shot the same course of fire with the same time constraints. Look at the reports from events like Tom Givens' Polite Society gathering for example.

But the idea that an instructor has to "prove" they can perform, before they can teach? If they're already a top tier professional instructor, as far as I'm concerned they don't have to prove anything- just teach.

lpl

 

[Geno]

All of my instructors have shown us what they expect.

Geno

 

[Nasty]

Lee - This topic was moved by a mod from General Handgunning, so perhaps the LE/Mil flavor you caution of came from a*that* forum.

Good day and Thanks for modding!

 

[Frank Ettin]

How many of us would have like to taken a class from Jeff Cooper before he left us (I'm sure many have, but this is for the rest of us)? Now, how many would have like to have taken a class from Jeff Cooper where we also got to see him shoot?...

I was lucky enough to take a class from Jeff Cooper at Gunsite in 2001. And no, he didn't shoot. And I don't recall the other instructors for that class, Ed Head, Ed Stocks and Dave Harris, shooting either. But that was okay. I didn't mind then, and I don't mind now.

asking Jordan or Koby to teach you to play basketball like they do...they can't. their skill came naturally to them

I don't know what their training regimen was like growing up, so I can't refute this statement, but I would not assume that you are correct. I assume they achieved their level of skill through strenuous practice and discipline,..

I'm also skeptical of the "just came naturally" school of thought. But sometimes just because one is a champion doesn't mean he can be a good teacher.

Wearing my competitive trapshooter hat, I've had a couple clinics from some champions of the game, and it's been my experience that they aren't always the most effective coaches.

 

[FTSESQ]

Sure.

I see no reason why they shouldn't, even if they can't demonstrate the skill 100%. Maybe its not the same, but at 65 years old my baseball coach in high school couldn't hit homeruns any more, but was an amazing teacher when it came to learning the small nuances that separated the good hitters from the great ones. He would occasionally take batting practice with us and not one of us lost any respect or interest if he couldn't get bat on ball, but when he did get a hold of a ball and drove it deep, we were all impressed.

 

[NoAlibi]

I was lucky enough to take a class from Jeff Cooper at Gunsite in 2001. And no, he didn't shoot. And I don't recall the other instructors for that class, Ed Head, Ed Stocks and Dave Harris, shooting either. But that was okay. I didn't mind then, and I don't mind now.

In this case I wouldn't mind either - all these men come with a history that I can relate to. In these we trust - all others must prove.

You pays your money and you takes your choice...

 

[Crusader103]

I have been an instructor since 1997. I would never present a technique without demonstrating it myself. Simply put, if I cannot demonstrate my own proficiency, marksmanship, and weapon handling skills I should not be an instructor for there is no basis on which my students place their confidence. Every skill presented will have been demonstrated to a high degree of proficiency, often with a student weapon. That is a standard I hold myself to and the day I cannot perform, I will cease to be an instructor. That does not mean I shoot every drill, every time, as the student is not paying me to shoot their course. I am stating that an instructor should demonstrate all new techniques and set a stellar performance example to emulate.

To say that you have everything to lose and nothing to gain is a false premise. True, you lose credibility if you cannot demonstrate your own proficiency and the value of your techniques.... and you should. On the other hand, when a student sees how very proficient and effective your techniques are you will have gained a greater level of trust in the skills you present. They will strive to meet that same standard. When someone strives to emulate you, that speaks volumes for you while increasing their desire to achieve.

Too often I have seen a purported instructor with inferior skills. How on earth, and why, could a student be expected to place value in an instructor whose skills have not been proven superior? Should someone take marksmanship lessons from someone who can't hit a target with admirable results? Or learn a reload from someone who fumbles a magazine?

Nobody should take driving lessons from someone who refuses to drive them around the block.