Should Muslims be in the military?

[Lone_Gunman]

Do muslims in the military deserve additional scrutiny?

If so, does a married white female age 55 deserve the same scrutiny as a single muslim male age 25?

If so, why?

If not, isn't that discriminatory?

If we are going to scrutinize people is there any way to do it without it looking like the Spanish Inquisition?

 

[tyme]

I don't have any sound arguments for keeping muslims out of the military, but I think it's clear that deterrence or punishment-after-the-fact doesn't do much in the case of religious fanatics. Of course those same qualities of the CJS and UCMJ don't have much behavior-altering effect on crazy people either, but crazy people are partially screenable.

(these are purely hypotheticals, not proposals)

Would anyone object to more extensive background checks on muslims wishing to enter the military?

And if so, is there a point at which the additional costs of such checks could be used as justification to ban muslims from the service?

 

[chaim]

Should Muslims be in the military?

Yes.

I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if someone else came up with the following points.

The two recent spys out of Gitmo illustrate an important point. The chaplains are endorsed and backed by religious authorities in their religion that are approved by the military. Apparently, some of the Muslim authorities are extremist groups or sympathise with extremist/terrorist groups. There are very few Muslim chaplains so the military may relax their standards to get people in. The interpreter is a similar issue. After Sept.11 the US realized how few Arabic interpreters we had. There was a major shortage and the US intelligence agencies were desperate for anyone they could get. It is very easy to picture that they may well have been a bit lax on their background checks in order to fill needed slots.

To me it simply means that anyone getting jobs with a security clearance should have to get the same background check that people get in jobs that aren't as much in shortage. There is no reason that anyone who has been to Syria, a hostile nation on the State Dept list of nations that support terrorist, should ever get a clearance.

Otherwise, this is America. You don't get punished for what you might do. You must do something to be punished.

 

[Drjones]

No. Not for a while at least...

They shouldn't be allowed on planes either, at least not after a THOROUGH inspection.

It wasn't a bunch of white 80 year old grandmothers that hijacked the planes, nor was it 6 ft tall gorgeous blondes like I've seen them pull aside.

PC will be the death of this country.

 

[Matt1911]

Can't judge a group by the actions of a few,even when the group refuses to seperate themselves from them?
What if the KKK had done all these acts?

 

[Joe Demko]

No. Not for a while at least...

What do Muslims look like?

I have relatives back in the old country who are blonde, blue-eyed, fair skinned, and Muslim.

One of my best friends is swarthy, has a hooked nose, curly black hair, and dark eyes. He's also a Roman Catholic and ethnic Pole.

So what do Muslims look like?

PC won't be the death of this country. Rah-rah xenophobia wrapped in the flag will.

 

[Leatherneck]

People who volunteer to serve in the military services, in uniform or not, give up certain aspects of privacy. We're subject to periodic deep investigation as well as continuous surveillance of varying degrees of intrusiveness. Special job, special forfeiture of privacy.

The watchers obviously should be keeping an especially close eye on anyone who exhibits a tendency to communicate or sympathize with extremist groups of any kind, and in the current cases, I believe they were. These guys walked unwittingly into a trap laid on the basis of information garnered under the conditions mentioned above.

The situation is very similar to the cold war, but different ethnicities involved.

TC
TFL Survivor

 

[wingman]

If you have or receive American Handgunner please read the nov/dec issue
"American Exceptionalism" "Don't let the idea of America die" Excellent
article and pretains to this thread in many ways.

 

[Khornet]

Leatherneck is right

and Derek, with all respect, your comments are way overblown.

Who cares what color/sex/religion a person is? No reasonable person....unless the religion in question has been THE basis for mass murder of our countrymen, and continues to be so. It matters not that most adherents of that faith are peaceful and loyal Americans; most oysters don't contain pearls either but if you're looking for pearls, you gotta look at oysters. Extra scrutiny is not only justified, it's our duty. And more than one American Muslim has publicly declared himself perfectly willing to tolerate that extra scrutiny in the interest of his country.

That said, the matter of the silence of so many of the world's Muslims has been raised. A recent column on either National Review online, or Jewish World Review, points out the death threats, insults, and ostracism endured by the few who HAVE spoken out, and asks us to ask ourselves: How many of US would be speaking out under the same circumstances? There wasn't much public criticism of Hitler in 1939 Germany either. It's hard (unless you're a liberal) to condemn the actions of your fellow-believers.

So, should Muslims be allowed to serve? Silly question. Of course. Should they be looked at twice? Silly question. Of course. No one says we (or they) have to like it--it's just the way it is.

 

[buzz_knox]

One of mine is the possibility that I'll have to wear a yellow crescent moon arm-band, or have a license that identifies me by my faith. These sorts of discussions aren't far away.

The discussions may not be far away but the arm bands and licenses will be, if I have anything to say about it. I'm one of those Gentiles who said "never again" when watching the films of mass graves outside of the concentration camps. I take that oath very seriously, and have the will and means to do something about it.

As for whether Muslims should be allowed in the military, they belong there along with Christians, Jews, atheists, etc. The key is to eliminate the bad ones, not bar the good ones. Does that mean we take the risk of an infiltrator doing damage? Yes. That's one of the sucky points of having a free society.

It's amazing that people who don't want firearms banned because of the actions of individuals would ever even think of barring an entire group from the privilege of serving because of the acts of other individuals.

 

[2dogs]

Wow, this has remained fairly civil!

According to FNC there now may be 5 other Muslim U.S. military folks involved in the espionage.

To those who mentioned Pollard, uh, when did Jews swear to kill all non Jews and specifically Americans? When did they begin their jihad against the U.S.?

I don't recall hearing of Jewish FBI agents who refused to perform their duty if it involved other Jews. I don't recall hearing about Catholic FBI agents who refused to go after the Mafia because most mafiosi are Italian, and most Italians are Catholic.

This is not a war against all Muslims, and all Muslims are not out to kill us- but let's face it, like it or not, all of those seeking to kill us in this war ARE MUSLIMS. I don't want to see all Muslims persecuted or rounded up and put into camps like the Japanese Americans in WWII.

I'm just asking at what point it becomes wise to favor the practical over the philosophical.


Let's say that our enemy (by their choice) are all members of "group x". These members of group x have all sworn to kill as many of us as possible. Now let's say that a good number of group x members are (gummint checked and approved) airline pilots. And those airline pilots decide, independently of each other, on different days and different times to slam their aircraft into the ground killing all 350 civilians on board.

Would any one here feel comfortable flying with "group x" pilots?

Would some one telling you that not all group x people are bad or want to kill you make you feel more comfortable on your next flight with a group x pilot at the controls?

Might it be a good idea to ground all group x pilots for a while?

 

[buzz_knox]

Might it be a good idea to ground all group x pilots for a while?

How long? A day, a month, a year? You would be trying to prove a negative, that the pilots were not going to do something bad. Since you can't prove a negative, you would be grounding them for life.

Do I think those from a known enemy country/region should be scrutinized? Yes. Then again, Richard Reid was from England, Lindh was from California (okay, almost an enemy nation to some here), and Padilla was American as well (from Chicago I believe). They would have escaped scrutiny except for their religious status.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

and Derek, with all respect, your comments are way overblown.

Really? Read up a few posts -- not only would some posters refuse me the right to serve, they would refuse my right to travel in airplanes. Now, would they also refuse me the right to rent a u-haul and haul my stuff across the country (insert appropriate McVeigh reference here)?

Since my family has been in the US since before the revolution and I'm a basic country boy in appearance, how will airline screeners, u-haul rental shops, and highway patrol officers in states I pass through know about the security risk I (because of my religion) present to them?

Do you see where my line in the sand comes in? There are people here who would basically strip me of my rights because of the way I choose to worship God. That ain't right. Without getting into the origins of hatred many middle-easterners have for us, it just ain't right.

So, are you comfortable with people like me being able to own precision rifles (hint: I can keep sub-MOA groups at every range I've shot at, and have some training as a FO from my time playing infantry (11C)? How about having people like me, who you know are armed, having a license from the state to carry concealed? And travel the states freely while armed? Without having to identify myself based on my religion before entering a courthouse? Running for office? Maintaining a forum where "gun-nut whackos" frequent -- a board known to have hidden forums? Being able to fly with no more concern than they offer any other passenger?

If you're not comfortable with any of the things I've listed above (and I could list many more), then you're advocating having my rights stripped from me simply because God chose to reveal Himself to me while I was reading a book you're scared of. The 2nd amendment is cherished by many here; what about the rest of the bill of rights?

If I am hereforth denied these rights, based on the actions of a bunch of Saudis, for the "safety of the republic" or some other nonsense, how am I to react? How would you react?

Do you think these actions on behalf of government result in a safer, more stable republic? Of is this the beginning of a civil war?

 

[2dogs]

They would have escaped scrutiny except for their religious status.

Um, isn't that the defining characteristic of the current enemy? Does denying reality help?

How long? A day, a month, a year?

'Til they lose?

 

[Derek Zeanah]

'Til they lose?

2dogs: when will I be allowed to fly again? When will you feel sufficiently safe to restore that right to me? When will the politicians feel certain that there won't be any negative backlash against removing the restriction? What's to keep the restrictions from growing each time the Joe Sixpack feels unsafe in the same of doing something?

Why do you think this is OK? More importantly: why do you think I'll react any differently than if someone shows up at my door with a court order to turn over all my firearms? Or are you going to feel safer if it goes down that way?

How is this different from the status of Jews in Nazi Germany?

 

[buzz_knox]

They would have escaped scrutiny except for their religious status.

Um, isn't that the defining characteristic of the current enemy? Does denying reality help?

The reality is that some have used Islam to justify their anti-social behavior. That does not render all followers of Islam anti-social. For example, some Christians believe that killing abortion doctors is God's will. Since murder is wrong, should we ban all Christians from owning firearms or explosive materials until such time as we can be certain they won't kill such a doctor? After all, we are trying to distinguish good religious people from "bad" religious people.

2dogs, please tell me what your beliefs are, political, religous, etc. I'm sure that we can find a crime committed by a zealot who has espoused the same beliefs you have. Should we then bar you from all activities?

How long? A day, a month, a year?

'Til they lose?.

There will never be an end to terrorism until there is an end to humanity. They will not, therefore, ever "lose." You would thus abrogate the Constitution. Why not ban firearms until there is an end to "gun violence."

The more I read, the more I think that Derek has the right of it. Ah, well. I guess he'll be a good person to share a foxhole with. He can tell me about Allah while I tell him about Christ, and we both shoot the people trying to put us in one camp or another.

 

[10-Ring]

A good American is a good American.

 

[Intune]

Count me as one in the foxhole. As a half French, born in Germany, Puerto Rican step dad, it's fine if my sister wants to marry a Black, Muslim, former Jewish, I judge each person individually, kinda guy… I have no problem with someone who wants to serve the U.S. by entering the military. Pass the ammunition.

As long as he's not from Wales. You can never trust the Welch. Welchers.

 

[2dogs]

Derek Zeanah

I'm not advocating, I'm asking.

The knee jerk reaction to even asking the question seems to me the same as the knee jerk reaction to "profiling".

Geez, lighten up guy, I don't have the jack boots on yet.

 

[2dogs]

How is this different from the status of Jews in Nazi Germany?

Are you serious?

 

[2dogs]

That does not render all followers of Islam anti-social.

Yes, I definately said they were- thanks for pointing that out.

 

[pax]

Yes, so far the discussion has been civil -- though I think if the title were, "Should a Jew be allowed in the military?" it'd be a lot more obvious just how frightening it is that the question is even being asked.

I suppose ordinary Germans had civil and courteous discussions with each other about the place of the Jews in modern German society, in the years leading up to WWII. Too bad the consensus eventually was, "The Jews are our affliction." It seems to me as though ordinary Americans are headed toward making the same basic decision about Muslims that the Germans made about the Jews.

For those who think this comparison is overblown, remember that the entire world was in the midst of a terrible economic depression in those years -- and that the Jews, for the most part, were still fat and happy. Obviously, the Jews had declared economic war on the ordinary peaceful German citizens, and it was only right that they should take sensible steps to protect themselves.

Obviously.

Obviously only a fool or a traitor would suggest that the Jews be treated as if they were not at economic war with the rest of the Germans.

pax

What is the difference between a Nazi and a Dog? The Nazi lifts his arm! -- Victor Borge

 

[pax]

Geez, lighten up guy, I don't have the jack boots on yet.

2dogs,

"Yet."

pax

Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. -- William Pitt, Earl of Chatham

 

[2dogs]

suppose ordinary Germans had civil and courteous discussions with each other about the place of the Jews in modern German society, in the years leading up to WWII. Too bad the consensus eventually was, "The Jews are our affliction." It seems to me as though ordinary Americans are headed toward making the same basic decision about Muslims that the Germans made about the Jews.

You know, I'm not Jewish but I think if I were I would find that arguement offensive.

As far as I know the Jews in Germany, Poland, Denmark, Finland, or any other place in the world DID NOT DECLARE WAR ON GERMANY. They DID NOT MURDER NON JEWISH GERMANS for the sin of being non Jewish.

Did I miss some important WWII era history?

 

[2dogs]

Whoops, sorry- I feel my civility slipping. Gonna go chill a while.