tiberius
Member
I don't remember Jews killing 2000+ Germans. Maybe they should have, but I think its a poor analogy.
Should Muslims be in the military?
- Thread starter 2dogs
- Start date
- Status
I don't remember Jews killing 2000+ Germans. Maybe they should have, but I think its a poor analogy.
2dogs,
I'm sorry you chose to take it as such. Fact is, my posts were pointing out the near-inevitable results of conversations such as this one -- that ordinary citizens would decide that the "Muslims are our affliction," just as ordinary Germans decided that the Jews were their affliction. Of course such a decision is first preceded by cultural discussions regarding the place of the targeted group in their society.
Wasn't personal, wasn't intended to be personal.
Oh, and I'm a "ma'am," not a "sir."
pax
The welfare of the people has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience. -- Albert Camus
I'm sorry you chose to take it as such. Fact is, my posts were pointing out the near-inevitable results of conversations such as this one -- that ordinary citizens would decide that the "Muslims are our affliction," just as ordinary Germans decided that the Jews were their affliction. Of course such a decision is first preceded by cultural discussions regarding the place of the targeted group in their society.
Wasn't personal, wasn't intended to be personal.
Oh, and I'm a "ma'am," not a "sir."
pax
The welfare of the people has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience. -- Albert Camus
Joe Demko
Member
The analogy to the Jews in Germany is a good one. There was a perception in Germany, fostered deliberately by some and also through ignorance and stupidity by many, that Jews as a group were dangerous. Many Germans, and other nationalities as well, did perceive the Jews as an alien religious group that had declared war on their society. Unscrupulous men exploited that perception with results that we all know about.
At present, we have people pushing the idea that Muslims as a group have declared war on our American way of life. There's no shortage of ignorance and stupidity in America (or the rest of the world for that matter). All that is necessary now is for the unscrupulous men to exploit it.
Can't happen? We already have a history on this country of rounding people up and putting them in camps. Ask anybody of Japanese or American Indian descent.
At present, we have people pushing the idea that Muslims as a group have declared war on our American way of life. There's no shortage of ignorance and stupidity in America (or the rest of the world for that matter). All that is necessary now is for the unscrupulous men to exploit it.
Can't happen? We already have a history on this country of rounding people up and putting them in camps. Ask anybody of Japanese or American Indian descent.
rock jock
Member
No one is suggesting rounding up Muslims in camps. We are simply advocating caution on our part. This caution is warranted for real, not imagined crimes on the part of a sizable number of Muslims, and, perhaps more importantly, support from the general worldwide Muslim community ranging from praise and financial contributions to sympathy and apologetics. None of that has any parallel whatsoever to the situation in 1930's Germany w/ respect to the Jews.
Keith
Member
Here's an interesting fact; the military chooses it's Muslim chaplains, not from Sunni or even Shiite groups (moderate Islam), but from the same extremist Wahhabi sect that spawned Bin Laden!
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030923-114941-5056r.htm
"...One of the three Muslim groups involved in training or approving chaplains is the Graduate School of Islamic Social Sciences in Leesburg, Va. U.S. government agents raided that group last year as part of a sweep of organizations suspected of having ties to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terror network. The graduate school trains would-be military chaplains. The other two groups endorse the candidates.
The American Muslim Armed Forces and Veteran Affairs Council in Arlington sponsored Capt. Yee's chaplaincy."
"... The defense department documents showed that the Veteran Affairs Council was a designee of the American Muslim Foundation (AMF), which also was included in the Justice Department sweep.
The AMF was co-founded by Abdurahman Alamoudi, an acknowledged supporter of the Palestinian terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah. Mr. Alamoudi in 2000 contributed money to the Senate campaign of Hillary Rodham Clinton. She returned it after Mr. Alamoudi's anti-Jewish sentiments were made public.
The second Pentagon-approved endorser is the Islamic Society of North America. One of its board members, Siraj Wahhaj, was named in 1995 by U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White as one of more than 100 "unindicted persons who may be alleged as co-conspirators" in the attempt to blow up New York monuments.
Mr. Wahhaj also served as a character witness for Sheik Omar Abel Rahman, who was convicted in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. Mr. Wahhaj was never convicted of a crime.
The disconnect between the Justice Department and the Pentagon was similar to the breakdown that led to the September 11 attacks, said Rita Katz, author of "Terrorist Hunter" and director of the Search for International Terrorist Entities (SITE) Institute.
"This is not intentional, but the things, the lack of sharing information, is still happening," Miss Katz said. "In this case, the Pentagon is relying on groups that the Justice Department is raiding. And neither agency was aware of what the other was doing. The system has to be re-examined and these agencies have to share more information."
Pentagon spokesmen said this week there are no plans to review the chaplain accreditation process."
"...For months, the Universal Muslim Association of America, which is aligned with Shi'ite Islam, has tried to become an endorser of Muslim clerics in the military and federal prisons. But the group says it has been ignored, despite its warnings that the Wahhabi form of Islam is being propagated to troops and prisoners.
"We would like to become an endorser before any more damage is done," said spokesman Agha Jafri. "The Defense Department should have been aware that there are two main forms of Islam and that it was only Wahhabism that is being represented."
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030923-114941-5056r.htm
"...One of the three Muslim groups involved in training or approving chaplains is the Graduate School of Islamic Social Sciences in Leesburg, Va. U.S. government agents raided that group last year as part of a sweep of organizations suspected of having ties to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terror network. The graduate school trains would-be military chaplains. The other two groups endorse the candidates.
The American Muslim Armed Forces and Veteran Affairs Council in Arlington sponsored Capt. Yee's chaplaincy."
"... The defense department documents showed that the Veteran Affairs Council was a designee of the American Muslim Foundation (AMF), which also was included in the Justice Department sweep.
The AMF was co-founded by Abdurahman Alamoudi, an acknowledged supporter of the Palestinian terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah. Mr. Alamoudi in 2000 contributed money to the Senate campaign of Hillary Rodham Clinton. She returned it after Mr. Alamoudi's anti-Jewish sentiments were made public.
The second Pentagon-approved endorser is the Islamic Society of North America. One of its board members, Siraj Wahhaj, was named in 1995 by U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White as one of more than 100 "unindicted persons who may be alleged as co-conspirators" in the attempt to blow up New York monuments.
Mr. Wahhaj also served as a character witness for Sheik Omar Abel Rahman, who was convicted in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. Mr. Wahhaj was never convicted of a crime.
The disconnect between the Justice Department and the Pentagon was similar to the breakdown that led to the September 11 attacks, said Rita Katz, author of "Terrorist Hunter" and director of the Search for International Terrorist Entities (SITE) Institute.
"This is not intentional, but the things, the lack of sharing information, is still happening," Miss Katz said. "In this case, the Pentagon is relying on groups that the Justice Department is raiding. And neither agency was aware of what the other was doing. The system has to be re-examined and these agencies have to share more information."
Pentagon spokesmen said this week there are no plans to review the chaplain accreditation process."
"...For months, the Universal Muslim Association of America, which is aligned with Shi'ite Islam, has tried to become an endorser of Muslim clerics in the military and federal prisons. But the group says it has been ignored, despite its warnings that the Wahhabi form of Islam is being propagated to troops and prisoners.
"We would like to become an endorser before any more damage is done," said spokesman Agha Jafri. "The Defense Department should have been aware that there are two main forms of Islam and that it was only Wahhabism that is being represented."
Joe Demko
Member
How many of those Muslims were American?
Define "sizable?"
What do you know about the worldwide Muslim community that allows you to speak to what their reactions were?
Caution. That's a good word. We must be cautious. If some human rights get trampled in the process, we can always say we were just being cautious.
Thumper
Member
Of course Muslims should be allowed to serve.
But let's not forget that those we fight are a particular flavor of Muslim.
If certain Presbeterians were in the habit of strapping HE to themselves and wandering into schools, I'd be leery of them, too.
But let's not forget that those we fight are a particular flavor of Muslim.
If certain Presbeterians were in the habit of strapping HE to themselves and wandering into schools, I'd be leery of them, too.
Intune
Member
Caution that manifests itself in what way? Everyone joining the military is "vetted" to some degree. Would you demand a more strenuous process for American Muslims? "…Sizable number…" "…Worldwide…" support? They couldn't even muster enough people "wildly dancing in the West Bank" following 9.11 for a wide-angle picture. The information that I have gleaned indicates that "most" Muslims DEPLORE the action taken by those hijackers. I would venture that the percentage of American Muslims against those violent actions is near 100%. Does anyone have FACTS to refute that?
Thumper
Member
But where was the condemnation, Intune?
If someone would have killed 3000 Muslims in the name of Christianity, I'm sure Billy Graham and the Pope would have been screaming denunciations on prime time TV.
Worldwide Christian outrage would have been overwhelming.
If someone would have killed 3000 Muslims in the name of Christianity, I'm sure Billy Graham and the Pope would have been screaming denunciations on prime time TV.
Worldwide Christian outrage would have been overwhelming.
Keith
Member
Were those Sunni or Wahhabi Muslims?
If you were vetting job applicants for your medical research facility, would you hire ELF and ALF members because "most" animal lovers deplore terrorism against animal research facilities?
You CAN separate Muslims based on sect. You may find extremists in every sect, but some sects teach extremism as part of their code.
Keith
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
The logical fallacies of today are the "Slippery Slope" and "False Analogy." Scrutinizing Muslim applicants to the Armed Forces, or even excluding them entirely, does not inevitably lead to them being disenfranchised or gassed en masse. And comparing narrow discussions about things like more involved background checks for Muslim would-be soldiers is not comparable to conversations about deporting all Muslims to Madagascar, or killing them off with Zyklon-B.
I don't think exclusion of Muslims from the military is the answer. If anything, the opposite is true... for instance, it is alot better to soldiers who had to go through a background check be your Arabic translators, as opposed to whatever civilians you could round up at the last minute. However, I think CI giving extra scrutiny to the backgrounds of folks who (a) apply for security clearances, and (b) went to Syria to convert to radical Islam, is perfectly sensible.
Can I get a "duh" from the crowd for that one, at least?
I don't think exclusion of Muslims from the military is the answer. If anything, the opposite is true... for instance, it is alot better to soldiers who had to go through a background check be your Arabic translators, as opposed to whatever civilians you could round up at the last minute. However, I think CI giving extra scrutiny to the backgrounds of folks who (a) apply for security clearances, and (b) went to Syria to convert to radical Islam, is perfectly sensible.
Can I get a "duh" from the crowd for that one, at least?
Intune
Member
Oh, like Waco...?
First, considerable confusion exists in many circles between the Arab-American and Muslim populations. Put simply: the majority of Arab-Americans are not Muslims and the majority of Muslims are not Arab-Americans.
This counter-intuitive fact may seem strange to those who are not aware of the nation's religious and immigration history. Yet recent research by the Arab-American Institute confirms the 1990 NSRI (Kosmin & Lachman 1993) as well as ARIS 2001 findings in this regard.
What does a MUSLIM look like? Hmm?
rock jock
Member
Yes, I do. The reaction from the American Muslim community via their leaders after 9/11 was one of "Well, this is of course terrible, BUT we MUST try to understand why these men felt desparate enough to do this and why America MUST immediately cease its support of Israel and why the Palestinians MUST be given their homeland and why America MUST pull its troops out of Saudi and why...........(ad naseum)". Not exactly a condemnation of the attacks.
rock jock nailed this one. Like him, every statement of condemnation by an iman or Muslim leader in the US was conditioned on "understanding the terrorist plight" and essentially calling it retaliation for America's terrible policies. I would love to see one of them stand up and say "this was an evil act abhorrent in the eyes of Allah" and sit down without making a jab at us or Israel.
Intune
Member
Have you guys been catching a lot a grief from the approx. 3 million Muslims who are United States citizens?
My "research" facility is not a branch of the govt. So you equate a religion with an organization like ELF or ALF.
Do Christians lace kids with cyanide kool-aid 'cause Jim Jones did?
:banghead:
My "research" facility is not a branch of the govt. So you equate a religion with an organization like ELF or ALF.
Do Christians lace kids with cyanide kool-aid 'cause Jim Jones did?
:banghead:
No, and that's the point for many of us. Don't injure the majority for the acts of a decided minority.
Doesn't matter if it's gov't or not. Gov't applications inquire as to whether you are or now are a member of a group that advocates the violent overthrow of the American gov't. Fits the bill nicely. And no, the analogy doesn't equate religion with ELF. It equates one terrorist group with another. 9/11 was carried out by terrorists who used Islam to justify their actions. Had the Sovs had less restraint over their clients, it could have been carried out by those who use communism to justify their actions.
No, but some calling themselves Christians blow up buildings, burn buildings, shoot abortion doctors, plot the violent overthrow of the gov't, etc. But they aren't Christians, as one of the basic tenets of that religion is not to harm the innocent. I would submit that those who advocate terrorism in the name of Allah are abusing that religion just the same.
What does a MUSLIM look like? Hmm?
This is what liberalism has wrought.
What does a communist look like?
What did a Nazi (out of uniform) look like?
How differant did a North Korean look from a South Korean (out of uniform)?
What did a WWI Hun look like?
I guess we shouldn't have fought any of them-we certainly couldn't have if they had been so inconsiderate as to not deck themselves out in the totalitarian uniform de jeure.
How bout we just get all the Islamofascist types to don some ridiculous looking uber tyrant costume so we can pick them off real easy.
Good idea, huh?
This is what liberalism has wrought.
What does a communist look like?
What did a Nazi (out of uniform) look like?
How differant did a North Korean look from a South Korean (out of uniform)?
What did a WWI Hun look like?
I guess we shouldn't have fought any of them-we certainly couldn't have if they had been so inconsiderate as to not deck themselves out in the totalitarian uniform de jeure.
How bout we just get all the Islamofascist types to don some ridiculous looking uber tyrant costume so we can pick them off real easy.
Good idea, huh?
Thumper
Member
Huh?
I must misunderstand you. Surely you don't believe that Waco was done in the name of Christianity.
I'm trying to make up my mind about this...help me understand why there wasn't enormous outcry from the Imams.
Intune
Member
Oh, yeah. And Jim Baker & Pat Robertson speak for the Christian community in regards to hookers and gays. O.K. Sure.
Spare me.
How about you develop intel that a person or unit is planning on an attack before taking them out? How about we look at the individual rather than the color of his skin or the angle of his eyes?
If we accept that that you don't have to wear a uniform to be a bad guy, can we also accept that you don't have to wear a dunce cap or bed sheet to be a racist? Look at a person's ideas/actions, not their skin or nationality. If a person wants to overthrow the gov't, they are a terrorist. If a person wants to deny civil rights or privileges based solely on the color of one's skin or ethnic background, then that person is a racist.
I'm sorry, but this is descending to the level of sheer stupidity. I think I'll sit back and watch the show.
Keith
Member
No, we attribute such things to that particular crazy sect. What I'm trying to point out here is that we KNOW which Islamic sects are dedicated to the destruction of western secularism and capitalism - the Wahhabi sect for one. We should simply recognize this and ban members of such groups from the military, and from immigration to this country.
That isn't a solution; there are other extremists in other sects as well, but this would be a good start.
Keith
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked