Should Muslims be in the military?

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Really, some of you folks would have argued that we shouldn't fight the Nazi's because some of them were Catholic.

That's going beyond disingenous and approaching ludicrous.

No one has a problem with fighting terrorists or any other threat to the US, regardless of race, creed, religion, etc. But your problem is that you see everyone of a particular religion as a threat, regardless of who they are.
 
And since the non detectives amongst you want to discount religion in fighting terrorism, you tell me what EVERY SINGLE ONE of the terrorist bombers in Israel, on 9/11, WTC 1993, Bali bombing, Kobar Towers, Beirut Marine barracks, USS Cole , Mogadishu had in common.

Whoops, how impolitic of me.

Let's just ignore that.
 
But your problem is that you see everyone of a particular religion as a threat, regardless of who they are.

And you picked this particular quote out of which of my posts?
 
The really dangerous ones have.

pax

PAX, are you saying that there might be REALLY DANGEROUS Muslims!?

And that we may have NO WAY of knowing WHICH ones are the REALLY DANGEROUS ONES!?

BINGO- give the lady a prize.

Adios all.
 
And you picked this particular quote out of which of my posts?

"...is it time to question the wisdom of putting Muslims in the military?

IIRC there weren't this many Italian Americans, or German American or Japanese American U.S. soldiers in all of WWII that couldn't be trusted."





:rolleyes:
 
There are some really dangerous PEOPLE.

Sayonara!
:cool:

And since the non detectives amongst you want to discount religion in fighting terrorism, you tell me what EVERY SINGLE ONE of the terrorist bombers in Israel, on 9/11, WTC 1993, Bali bombing, Kobar Towers, Beirut Marine barracks, USS Cole , Mogadishu had in common.

Whoops, how impolitic of me.

Let's just ignore that.

Let's not- Resurrect the Crusades, Save America! Sign up now! Onward soldiers, fighting as to war! Let God sort the infidels out! Muslims go home!
:what:

How many who perpetrated these acts were AMERICAN Muslims? Hmm? :scrutiny:
 
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I didn't read all the previous posts on this topic.

However, I think we need to treat people as individuals. They should be in the military.


There are a limited amount of resources. All of the Al Qaida terrorists have been muslims and I think the gov't needs to concentrate on that.

I think it would be a waste of precious resources if the gov't was looking for Al Qaida terrorists at a catholic church.
 
QUOTE:

However, I think we need to treat people as individuals. They should be in the military.


There are a limited amount of resources. All of the Al Qaida terrorists have been muslims and I think the gov't needs to concentrate on that.

I think it would be a waste of precious resources if the gov't was looking for Al Qaida terrorists at a catholic church.


I think that is a naive statement. These terrorist bastards will say anything, hide anywhere, do anything they can to kill americans, 9/11 should have proved that fact.
 
Political correctness run amuck!

If somebody is a member of the Aryan Nations, do we allow them in the military? Do we allow them in the Chaplain Corps to preach their brand of "Christianity" to others?

Yet, you people are arguing that members of Muslim sects that preach the destruction of all western civilization should be treated as "individuals"...

This doesn't make any sense. We KNOW that certain elements of Islam are determined to destroy us. Many of those elements are clearly identified and make no secret of their goal - Wahhab is one of them. Those elements should be weeded out, immediately.

As for other Muslims, I have no problem at all. Innocent until proven guilty...

Anyone here who has undergone a security clearance will tell you that they look at every aspect of your background. I've gone through this and I'm sure that many of you have as well. And if I had been associated with some group that was devoted to destroying western civilization, I wouldn't have gotten a clearance - and I wouldn't have been in the military any longer!

Yet, in the military today they weed out MODERATE Muslims, and prefer those from the fanatical Wahhabi sect... Why? Because Wahhab is Saudi based and we don't want to offend those with their hands on the oil taps. So we DELIBERATELY put these fanatical Wahhabs (the same ones who bombed us on 9/11) into the sensitive positions.

It's insane! It's insane to breach security by placing the anti-western elements of Islam into these positions, so as not to offend the Saudi's. And it's insane to defend this policy on political correctness.

Keith
 
I think the primary problem that most are missing with the "we've gotta pay extra attention to those people" idea is enforcement: how do you know who to watch? How do you make sure that everyone involved with this person knows about the red flag their religion poses?

For instance: you say I (because I practice islam) shouldn't be allowed to fly on planes. Who enforces that? The airlines? How do they know I'm a "potential bad person?" Either you modify my identification, or you force all reservations to go through a federal computer before being processed. In either case, I need to register with the feds.

Now, let's deal with the other things I might not be allowed to do because of the risk:

1) Buy books. I can go on Amazon and purchase books that detail how to make explosives and nerve agents (search for "Uncle Fester" as an author). Now, normal people like you can buy these things, as it's a freedom of speech issue. Should I be able to? I'm a bigger risk, so probably not. How will amazon know to sell to you but not to me? Uhhh. I've gotta be registered somewhere, and they need to check the registry.

2) I drive a diesel. Should I be allowed to go to Kmart to buy fertilizer for my lawn? After all, OKC showed us the damage the combination of diesel fuel, fertilizer, and a blasting cap can cause. If not, how do they know not to sell to me? What if I want to pay with cash -- should all cash transactions be outlawed for "sensitive" materials like fertilizer?

3) I like guns. Specifically, semi-autos that are as close to what I was issued in the Army as possible (I can still strip/assemble/function check in EIB time). Should I be allowed to own a "high-powered assault weapon" like this? If so, should I be allowed to purchase ammo in 1000 round lots from Eric the Ammoman over the Internet? He's a small business -- how will he know I'm not to be trusted?

4) I used to love the M60's we had; they were unreliable as hell but the rhythm was hypnotic. I'm gonna go apply for the paperwork required to purchase one. Should I be allowed to own one? If the feds screw up, how will the local sheriff know I'm one of those risky dudes?

5) Should I be allowed to reload my own ammunition? Not only can I do that to assemble an "arsenal" of "cop-killer" bullets, but I could just as easily use Bullseye for explosives manufacture. SHould I be allowed to? If not, should small-time operators be allowed to sell at gun shows where I might show up with cash in-hand?

6) Can I buy a firearm in a person-to-person transaction as is legal in my state?

7) Can I get a license to carry concealed?

8) If I'm driving cross-country and I refuse permission to search my car while stopped by the cops, should they search me anyway? Should I be arrested until I can prove I'm up to something lawful?

9) Can I train at a place like Gunsite?

10) Am I allowed to train in a Dojo, to a level that most law enforcement can't match?

11) Am I allowed to get a CDL after I lose my job, because the infomercial offers a good opportunity. If so, must my career be limited by not carrying hazardous materials?

12) Can I be a cop? Can I work for government at any level? Can I work for a bank, or for a utility company? Can I do consulting in computer security?

Many of these, it can be argued, present more "risk" than if I were to pass through a security checkpoint and board a plane. There are people reading this who think it's "reasonable" to restrict my behavior like this. There are two things that must happen in order for this to occur:

1) All people like me (ie: non-christian and non-jewish followers of the God of Abraham, Adam, and Moses) must be registered in a central database.

2) All transactions must be run through this system. Cash is a "tool of terrorists" to get around these reasonable and necessary reporting requirements.

Am I missing anything?

And to think, all this to feel "safer" from a threat that is likely to claim your life than being struck my lightning. I believe (don't have the numbers handy) that your chances of being a victim of terrorism in the US are something like 1:80,000; your chance of dying in a car accident is closer to 1:250.

Do we really want to walk this path? Is it worth the trade-offs?

And again, do you think I'll just say "ok" and go along with it because you tell me it's "reasonable" and "necessary" so that Joe Sixpack can feel safer?

Do you think the people who are really a threat to you are going to happily sign up with the database, or will they claim to be Orthodox Christians instead? Remember, the 9/11 hijackers got drunk at strip clubs frequently before the attacks...
 
A point I forgot to make: following this course of action will create 2 classes of citizens: "safe" people, and "potential terrorists." What'll happen to my chances of landing a job when they run a background check? Will it affect my chances to get health insurance? What about a potential landlord, or a homeowners association?

My wife is christian. Will my religious beliefs be a burden to my children when they enter school/apply for college/want to join the army? If they say they're baptist, can you trust that?

If I decide one day that I'm wrong -- that Jusus wasn't just a prophet, but that he was GOD himself -- can I get off the list? If a join a local church and get baptized and eventually become a deacon, should I be trusted? Will the church now be on a watch-list because I, and therefore they, are now suspect?

Will I ever get to be a "normal" citizen again?
 
Will I ever get to be a "normal" citizen again?

That presupposes you were normal to begin with. As a free-thinking, intelligent gun owner, I don't think you count as normal. ;)
 
"for 2dogs"

witchfinder.jpg
 
agricola

Thanks agricola. If I find any witches that kill 3,000 of our citizens at a time it might come in handy.:p
 
Derek,

Are you a member of a group who advocates the violent overthrow and destruction of all western culture? A Wahhabi, for example? If not, then I don't think any limitations should be placed on you at all.

If I was a member of a group like the Aryan Nations, it would be hypocritical of me to claim that while the group itself was subversive, I, personally, wasn't - I just attended meetings for the free beer...

Their ARE Muslim groups and religious sects that preach such things. To ignore this in the name of "diversity" (or what have you...) is to stick our heads in the sand. Members of these groups and/or religious sects should be prohibited from emigrating and should not be allowed in the military or any other sensitive position. If they want to disavow that group and no longer be a member, then that fact should be considered in their favor.

My brother is married to a lovely Turkish gal, a very nice woman and a Sunni Moslem. My nephews are being raised in the Islamic (Sunni) faith and they are as American as apple pie. If they were being raised in the Wahhabi faction where the US is cursed and damned and blamed for every wrong on earth, I wouldn't like it one bit.

Let's quit playing the political correctness game and admit that many branches of Islam are not our friends, Let's identify the dangerous elements and take appropriate action.

Keith
 
for agricola

http://www.jpfo.org/unpopularsp-winston-deporting.htm

Deporting Muslims
by Emanuel A. Winston


Winston Mid East Analysis & Commentary, March 9, 2003
www.gamla.org.il/english and http://freeman.io.com

I forecast a time when nations of the West will weary of radical Muslim Islamists and move to deport them back to their home countries. Unlike most immigrant populations escaping hostile governments or merely seeking greater opportunity in jobs, education and health care, radical Muslims breed an atmosphere of anger against their host nations.

The Europeans complain bitterly when the political Right of Israel maintain that the Arab Muslims do not want peace with the Jewish State of Israel and, therefore, would be better off living among their own brethren. But, that incompatibility is now becoming a major problem in France, England, the Netherlands - even in China when conversion to Islam guides the convert to become an adversary of the host nation.

According to Michael Ledeen in his new book: The War Against the Terror Masters (1) most of our vulnerability can be laid at the feet of a succession of American Presidents, namely, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, Sr. and, especially Bill Clinton. They found it politically importune to wage war against Terror. I strongly recommend this book will write about it more fully in the near future.

Even in America called the "great melting pot", since 9/11 it has been discovered that, during more than the past 30 years, rogue Arab/Muslim nations have been sending in Muslims who are hostile to America s Judeo-Christian free, democratic culture.

For more than 30 years the Arabs lived their own lives in their own lands which, at best, was backward, often primitive, when compared to the advancements of Western civilization. When oil became a highly valued commodity, the West was attracted to make commercial contacts with the Arab/Muslim countries in the Middle East. Not only was there commercial intercourse but Arab Muslims found the freedom and opportunities of the West irresistible and began immigrating into the democratic, free and open West. They could have made a successful migration as others had except for the tenets of Islam and its mandate to spread their religion by any means possible.

In America, the U.S. State Department had its diplomats currying favor with the oil-rich Arab/Muslim Sheiks and thus became enablers for a flood of Arab/Muslims from nations known to be hostile to America. Even such a hostile, Terror supporting Arab nation as Syria, who had no oil to speak of, was courted as a spoiler.

The U.S. State Department always knew that such nations as Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran - and even Egypt - had no love for America but the U.S. opened her borders to their incoming nationals anyway. Many American diplomats went native when serving in these nations and became outspoken defenders and apologists for hostile Arab/Muslim nations. When they left the employment of the U.S. State Department, many were then employed by the Arab/Muslim nations to lobby the current Administration and the Congress.

So, America started to fill up with a Muslim immigrant population that was not always friendly - with some coming in as trained Terror agents to establish sleeper cells . Even the FBI knew that it was politically unwise to investigate suspicious Arab/Muslims lest the U.S. State Department use the power given to them in order to protect the Arab/Muslims.

On March 5th, a homicide bomber from Hamas in Hebron blew up a bus full of schoolchildren returning home in Haifa, killing at least 16, wounding 40, with 2 in grave to critical condition and at least 5 victims in serious condition. This was the first successful Terror attack in 2 months but, 122 attacks were thwarted by the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) and security forces.

Nevertheless, the Supreme Court of Israel ruled that the protest theme of "No Arabs = No Terror" was illegal, although the facts of Arab/Muslim Terror speaks for themselves. Since buses and other civilian sites seem to be the prime target for Arab Palestinian Islamist homicide bombers, perhaps there must be a separate bus line for Arab Palestinians. It would certainly be more effective than a hugely expensive "fence" to supposedly separate the Jews from the Arabs.

Today, the nations of the world tell Israel not to separate the Jewish population from the Arabs, even as the Arabs try to attack daily. The world's nations threaten Israel, lest Israel transfer the Arabs to Jordan where there are vast empty lands and 70% of the population is Arab Palestinian. Although words like "segregation" and "apartheid" have properly been positioned as unacceptable treatment of peaceful people by dominant cultures, nevertheless, separation of Arab Muslims and Israeli Jews is unavoidable. Arab statements followed by interminable hostility pledged ongoing mandates that a two state solution cannot ever succeed but that, "In Blood and Fire, We will Redeem you, O Jerusalem!"

I think one day soon nations like France, England, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc. will politely (or not so politely) ask their Muslim populations to return to the nations from whence they came, which accept the Shari ah laws and all of its repressive mandates. Of course, there has been talk of the French migrating into Canada, with the English moving to the colonies.

Worse yet, with the availability of WMD (Weapons of Mass Death), a hostile immigrant population could take their alleged grievances to the point where radical Islamists could blow up or poison an entire city somewhere in the West.

America has had many waves of immigrations from every country in the world. Every color, creed, religion and, while there were minor clashes, never did one culture threaten the existence of another culture or the host nation as do the radical Muslim.

There is something in their teachings that, when they reach a critical mass and feel their power in numbers, something goes "click" and the aggressive behavior surfaces - or the sleeper cells are ordered to activate Terrorist warfare**. It is not that they were provoked into adversarial attitudes by the other cultures around them - except for the simple fact that there are others who are not Muslim which seems to irritate them. Perhaps it is the Islamic teachings by the Mullahs who train the children to grow up to hate and believe themselves spiritually superior that triggers this predatory mind-set as they mature.

Today, across the globe, we see a vast awakening of hostile Islam. This is aided by modern day communications where even the most poor and backward have TV or radio. When they see their Islamic brethren rise up in one nation, they are triggered to do so and delighted by the opportunity to wage Terror (low-intensity warfare), if not full scale war.

At this time, the West is suffering from so-called Muslim militants who thrill to the danger and the Terror they unleash. Moderate Muslims also thrill vicariously to the successes of their violent co-religionists. In their hearts, they wish them victory. Children especially sponge up these feelings of rage and the jubilation of first throwing stones and later graduating to fire-bombs, knives, guns, explosives and homicide bombings.

Some say, not all Muslims are Terrorists but admit that most Terrorists in the past decade have been Muslims. Worse yet, now that the modern world of high technology has put weapons of unbelievably destructive power into the hands of religious primitives, small groups or one dedicated man can accomplish incalculable devastation.

We cannot differentiate the trained radical Terrorists from the willing but untrained Islamists. In terms of necessary profiling, we cannot tell the peaceful, moderate Muslim from the subliminally hostile, trained, funded and armed Muslim homicide bomber.

The world is now under attack from a culture which believes it has been given a mandate that flows from Allah, through Mohammed via the Koran by the mouths of the Mullahs which tasks Muslims to spread Islam until they dominate all mankind.

In democratic countries where there is the process of voting, the politicians begin to appeal to Muslims for their votes because they are many. Part of that appeal is to ignore their outrageous behavior or find a way to apologize for and to forgive the hostile Muslims. We see this in France and England - even with some politicians in the American Congress beginning to yelp about unfair profiling of Muslims in fund-raising charities or students at universities who are taking courses in nuclear physics, chemistry, biology, aerodynamic rocketry, etc. These politicians are looking for political donor funds and the votes.

Regrettably, the harvesting of Arab/Muslim votes has been a strong motivating factor among the leaders of Israel's Left wing parties of Labor, Meretz.

The abortive Oslo process was driven largely by the Left hoping that grateful Palestinians would vote them into power and keep them there. They liked their Knesset (Parliament) seats and perks so many worked for the Arab/Muslim votes, against the interests and needs of the Jewish State. Once the mistake of opening the gates of the city was made by appeasement (through the Oslo Accords and those that followed), the Arab/Muslims felt strong and perceived the Jews as weak because they gave up their own lands in an attempted appeasement.

Oslo was followed by a dramatic ramping up of Terror against Jews everywhere in Israel and also Christians around the world. The nation of Israel, even the Left has finally recognized their mistake and voted the Left Labor/Meretz parties out of power.

I dare say that this will soon happen in America, France, England and across Europe. But, will it be soon enough? The attempt to pacify Islam on the march is an exercise in futility and both the people and the politicians will pay the price in blood. This the Arab/Muslims promise. In all their demonstrations, they chant: "In blood and fire, we will redeem you, O Jerusalem!"

Looking ahead, I forecast the time when the nations will, indeed, invite their Muslim populations to repatriate themselves back to where the fundamentalist Islamic Shari ah laws are the law of the land.





** Terror is defined as low intensity warfare.

1. The War Against the Terror Masters: Why It Happened. Where We Are Now. How We Will Win by Michael A. Ledeen St. Martin s Press 2002
 
Bring back "Dunking," if they live they are terrorists and we execute them. If they die they were innocent and we, um... Oh, throw their family a party. Yeah, that's it.

We all love and want to defend our country. That is a very positive, emotional ideal. We just can't all agree on how to do it.
 
more for agricola

English witches?

Muslims First, Citizens Second
by Dr. Ali Ahmed Rind

In my recent trip to London, I found (shockingly) that a good number of them have sympathy with the radical world view of fanatical Muslim outfits like Al-Qaeda.

"The day terror hit the U.S., I was in central London," says Jawed, a young entrepreneur from Pakistan, recalling the day that literally shook the world. "I had returned to my rented room in east London after a hectic business tour of city markets which started early that morning, when I received a call from Pakistan. On the other end was one of my friends.â€
‘Did you see?’

‘What?’ I asked. ‘Really? You don't know what is going on?’ He could not hide his surprise mixed with glee. ‘No, I have just returned home.’ ‘Turn on BBC and watch America burn.’

“I was stunned. In the next few hours, what I saw on the television screen and heard on the telephone and on the streets I can never forget.

“There was commentary in the BBC's live telecast. They were repeating clips of the falling twin towers. For me, it was gruesome and ghastly. I felt something dying, collapsing inside me along with the crumbling towers. I went out on the street to see how people reacted to this. All offices were closed and skyscrapers were emptied. Everyone was confused and scared.

“Who could the perpetrator be? What did they want to accomplish through this act of sheer terror? What would America’s reaction be?

“The BBC commentators were busy murmuring their words. Answers to these questions were not hard to find. In the coming days, ‘Muslims’ in Europe became synonymous with ‘suspicion’ and forced even borderline Muslims living in the West to embrace the argument of fanatics: this is the commencement of a holy war between Islam and the West.

"How do you feel now?" I asked him a year later, during a trip to London.

"Strange," he immediately replied. "A fault line is being falsely created between us [Muslims] and the rest of the world. Leaders like President Bush and Prime Miinister Blair with their aggressive policy in the Middle East and elsewhere are forcing us to believe the fundamentalists’ argument that the West is the enemy of Muslims."

But people like Sultan are an exception in the half-million strong Muslim community of the U.K. The majority, from South Asia, do not think that the attack on the world's sole superpower was immoral thus unjustified. In my recent trip to London, I found (shockingly) that a good number of them have sympathy with the radical world view of fanatical Muslim outfits like Al-Qaeda.

Despite the fact that many among them are permanent residents of Great Britain and hold its nationality, they nevertheless do not feel a part of its culture. Their alienation is increasing with each passing day. The imminent attack on Iraq and the continued bloodshed in Palestine at the hands of Israeli forces add to their venomous argument in favor of Jihadi world view.

Tired of endless, furious debate that lasted for many hours at a party, I asked Rafik, a British-born Muslim trader who owns a chain of food stores in the UK, "What are you: Muslim or British?" Without hesitation, he replied, “I am Muslim first.†For him, being a British national was not significant, though he earns a living and lives through another identity. (Though he was a hypocrite, sadly, he did not realize it.)

"God willing, Muslim power will prevail over the entire world one day,†he said. “Our forefathers conquered the world and, God willing, we will be witnessing it again." That moment, he was more like a megalomaniac, gun-toting terrorist than a sane, British-born trader.

I was rebuked by a Muslim professional in another chat when I tried to convince him about the wickedness of the Jihadi view of Osama Bin Laden. He demanded of me bluntly, “Is Israel being fair with its brethren Palestinian people?" In his view, events like September 11 are in reply to whatever is happening with Muslims in Palestine and elsewhere.

On September 11 this year, saner people around the world were commemorating the first anniversary of September 11. In London, some radical Muslims celebrated this event under the banner of Jamiat-ul-Furqa.

On September 28, 500,000 people marched through central London protesting a proposed U.S. attack on Iraq. The Mayor of London led the march, which was dominated by Muslim participants. One banner among the array of banners read "Death to America.†I could not decide if I was on the streets of Tehran, Iran or London, England.

The isolation that an average Muslim feels while living in the West is not a good omen for the West. Saner people should come forward to encourage them not to feel hunted and to be part of the mainstream.

Thousands of miles away, in Karachi, Pakistan—the day Jawed found himself crumbling inside at the site of the crumbling twin towers—there was jubilation on our streets in Pakistan as people were thrilled at the images of destruction and came out on the streets to share their excitement. It was probably not totally out of love for Al-Qaeda, but out of a hate that is endemic in this part of the world—a hate against the world's only superpower: “Amerika,†as it is pronounced in Pakistan.

My phone kept ringing with calls inquiring about my reaction. I was numb. I was lonely, ashamed, frightened and dying inside.

"How do you feel about September 11?" I asked one U.S. friend who had come to attend a conference in London. He had applied for asylum in the U.S. ten years ago after slipping out of Pakistan as military men came at his throat for his anti-military progressive activities.

"Not good," he replied. "We were against these Jihadis when the U.S. was supporting them. We fought with them when they were getting weapons made in the U.S. Now, whenever I travel, wherever I go, I am picked out of a row and grilled since my name and color resemble those who are waging an unholy war with their ex-patrons."

"For me," he said as he continued to vent his anger, “the people sitting in the Pentagon and in the caves of Afghanistan are both monsters that want to divert our attention from the real issues. They want to fight a war in the interest of reactionary forces who are serving the interest of the ‘rich people's Mafia.’ "



Copyright © 2003 The Baltimore Chronicle and The Sentinel.

http://baltimorechronicle.com/muslimsfirst_nov02.html
 
Let's quit playing the political correctness game and admit that many branches of Islam are not our friends, Let's identify the dangerous elements and take appropriate action.

You'll have no problem with that from me. I absolutely agree.
 
Let's quit playing the political correctness game and admit that many branches of Islam are not our friends, Let's identify the dangerous elements and take appropriate action.
1. Reread the topic line of this thread. "Muslims."
2. There are branches of environmentalism that advocate the same thing. You're not talking about a religion, you're talking about people who want to see the US destroyed, regardless of their religious feelings (or lack of.) Certainly a fun discussion to have, but this thread seems to be focused on muslims specifically.
 
Actually I found them with a word search- generally though I don't find JPFO tending to print "racist tripe".

Maybe I'll contact Aaron and warn him of your dismay.
 
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