Should there be stricter limits on law enforcement weapons?

Should there be stricter limits on law enforcement weapons?

  • No, there should be fewer restrictions or no restrictions at all.

    Votes: 130 53.7%
  • There should be more restrictions on patrol officers, but not on special groups like SWAT

    Votes: 21 8.7%
  • Law enforcement as a whole should be more limited in the weapons to which they have access

    Votes: 91 37.6%

  • Total voters
    242
  • Poll closed .
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Yes, if a group of thugs gets into a shootout with police and they are armed with illegally-modified (and stolen) automatic rifles, the police should have similar to take them out with (if there is an advantage to having them).
There is a slight error in this view, in my very humble opinion. A full-auto carbine is not more deadly/capable, generally, than a semi-auto one. Even our military troops generally use their carbines in semi-auto mode. Precision, aimed fire is VASTLY superior to full-auto in almost every situation.

I understand where you're coming from here. I suppose more the argument I was trying to make is that if there is some tactical advantage to what the bad guys have that suddenly becomes illegal to civilians (i.e. semiautomatic rifles firing an intermediate round), we'd be a bit "outgunned".

But hey, as long as they don't restrict civilian ownership of phased plasma rifles, I'm good :p
 
Ragnar Danneskjold said:
Some politicians are lying sacks of ####, some aren't.
Name ten of the second kind!

I think you actually raise a lot of good points, and you're right, the problem is generally with departmental policies, not the guys trying to do their job. But those policies lead to over-used SWAT teams, those policies lead to issued handguns in a land with absolutely no way for a citizen to legally carry (in some locales even possess) a personal weapon, and those policies lead to Cory Maye/Jonathan Ayers/Aiyana Stanley-Jones incidents ... all cases where police are unrestricted and mostly not held accountable ... there is where the disconnect comes from, that is how police get labeled as JBTs until proven otherwise.
 
Except police. When 1 police officer does something wrong, all police are now jack booted thugs who get off on trampling liberty.

Forgive me if I missed it, but I didn't see anyone asserting this.

Cops ARE given special access and authority, that makes it easier for them to be "jack booted thugs who get off on trampling liberty" if that is their proclivity, and this access and authority must therefore have checks and balances. "Trust the cops! They're good people." is no more valid than, "You should blindly trust a mechanic not to screw you!" or "Pharmacists would never use their access to profit from the black market!" My mechanic is a great guy, and any pharmacists I've known are, also. That's not the point...

There are good reasons for restrictions on LEO activities, just as with some other occupations. This hardly implies that we think that all LEOs are the worst sorts of people. They're not. They COULD be, though, so some controls are necessary.

I don't think my town is full of muggers and carjackers, either, but I'll carry a gun anyway, just in case...
 
When 1 police officer does something wrong, all police are now jack booted thugs who get off on trampling liberty.

I'm with ArmedBear; I haven't seen anyone asserting this. But since we're on the subject, categorizing police is a valid a way as any in thinking about this issue. Do we, as a society, want our LEOs armed as they are, or more or less heavily?

This comes back to the "no dog in this fight" argument. Police officers choose to accept the job, risks and all, and become an employee of the people. If they find the circumstances too dangerous, there will be fewer lining up for LE jobs. In either case, they are answerable to the people they serve and protect.

They also answer their superiors in the department, but that does not absolve them of their responsibility to the citizens, and every citizen has a direct interest in how those servants and protectors carry out their duties.

KR
 
Speaking of police weaponry, I am against police dogs. Guns are safer than police dogs. (Moderators: Did you like the way I made my comment "gun related"?:D) A police officer with a dog can escalate "force necessary" way above the use of a gun, which has lots of regulations for restraint of use, whereas a dog goes to "teeth" and causes severe injury real quick. Yet we let this practice continue. An officer with a machinegun or sniper rifle is probably less of a threat to the public than the officer with the police dog.
 
All of you "Stop whining because you can't afford an NFA item" people would be on here whining all day if your state decided to start a massive gun/ammo tax. If you don't think that can happen, just look at some of the bills that those moonbats have proposed in CA and elsewhere. What if they decided to microstamp ammo and only one company made it...and it sold for $200/box. Maybe I'll just reply "So what, earn more money if you want ammo that bad". That's not the free market. That's government intervention to artificially inflate the market for a certain item in order to discourage ownership of that item. They did that to Freon to discourage it's use...why not guns too?

Or how about if your state went from shall issue to may issue? I bet I'd hear you whining then. Maybe I'll just have to reply "Who cares.....you could still actually get one if you want one bad enough or you cared enough to make friends with the right people".

It doesn't mean it's not infringing on your rights just because you can actually get the item if you have boatloads of cash, a good enough haircut, or whatever else they require. Infringement is infringement. An NFA item is not like a 57' Chevy that's expensive because they don't make them anymore and they are a collectors item (true supply and demand). Machine guns are being made today all over the US. We just cannot legally own one of those specimens so it drives up the price for the pre-86 ones. It's not the free market...it's just manipulation.

I'd like to know why they feel comfortable with me having a machine gun made in 1965 but not one made in 1999. :banghead:
 
atomd said:
Infringement is infringement. An NFA item is not like a 57' Chevy that's expensive because they don't make them anymore and they are a collectors item (true supply and demand). Machine guns are being made today all over the US. We just cannot legally own one of those specimens so it drives up the price for the pre-86 ones. It's not the free market...it's just manipulation.

I'd like to know why they feel comfortable with me having a machine gun made in 1965 but not one made in 1999.

What he said times ten!
 
They just found a convenient way to limit the number of available, registered machine guns. People in government would really we didn't have any, but this conveniently limited them to the wealthier, and if you have $20K-$60K in a fun toy, you are less inclined to want to do something that makes you surrender it. Fortunately, they forgot about grenade launchers..........................:D
 
I feel bad for the LEOs who train on their own time to become competent with, say, a 1911 and are then restricted by their agency to carry something that might not be as good in their hands, perhaps something selected because it is easier to train neophytes on, easier for smaller/weaker officers of a different gender to shoot, etc. Also, I feel bad for those who work for an agency where they aren't even carrying a weapon all the time, say a sheriff's dept. which mainly does corrections. They will be going out with a weapon they may be issued that day that they have never personally fired. That to me is potentially dangerous.
 
So in other words, it's EASIER to become an Atlanta police officer than it is to get your GFL.


really? you go through a real background check? have to train and qualify to get a permit in georgia?

They named off a list of 8-10 felonies that wouldn't keep you off the APD. But the same ones would keep you from having a GFL, much less owning a firearm in general (which they failed to mention). So yes, on that part, it is easier.

Wyman
 
Steve in PA said:
So someone thinks they have a basis for saying what tools a law enforcement officer can or cannot have??

I love how people complain.....LEO's can have full-auto.....but not me!

Here's a hint................you can! But the freaking Federal Stamp and you too can have the same firearms. I guess all those people that go to Knob Creek are nothing but LEO's right??

Law enforcement is the only field where everyone NOT in law enforcement thinks they know who, what, when, where and how the job should be done. Go try the same thing with your doctor or mechanic and see where it gets you.

Not really true -
Anything made after 1986 can't be registered to a regular Joe. You can buy old stuff that was registered before then, but if you want a new M240B, you're out of luck.
 
On a practical level, agency regulations mean that I am less well-armed than the average seriously-armed Texan. (I work for a very large PD.) If I jump through enough hoops, I can carry a semi-auto AR15 or Mini-14, with no magnifying optics installed. My primary duty pistol must be one of several specified .40 autos. I am allowed two shotgun models, and only two sizes of buckshot, and slugs are a gray area. Back-up handgun regs are a bit more relaxed. I can legally carry other weapons and ammo, but can expect to be punished if I use them, and left on my own, without agency backing, during ensuing legal proceedings, even if it was a legal/justifiable use of force.

In 2007, a edict was issued that banned attaching any illumination devices to any of our firearms, and that edict extended to weapons we use defensively during our personal time. (Lasers have always been banned; not that I care for lasers, anyway.) Finally, in 2010, after the command staff studied the situation to death, we may use lights on our weapons, after taking a training course, but only certain weapons, certain lights, and in the case of handguns, buying a specified and quite expensive duty rig that accommodates the mounted light on the holstered pistol, even if the main time I really want to mount the light on the weapon is at home, where I don't wear my duty rig, anyway. (I need to have the holster to take the class.) Moreover, that specified holster is not made for the P229, so I would have to switch duty pistols, or at least acquire yet another duty pistol, on top of all the other complications.

Back to optics on rifles; only three training classes were offered, to certify officers to use Aimpoints or EOtechs. So, a few dozen officers, out of several thousand, can actually mount optics on their weapons. I lost my ability to use the A2 rear sight accurately, under very bright or dim lighting conditions, about three years ago. I leave the AR15 locked up; I can shoot a 4" .357 GP100 "backup" handgun with greater confidence in hitting something.

I would be GLAD, as a police officer, to be able to carry the same weapons as the public. I am lucky; some officers, working for other PDs, only get to carry one duty handgun, and nothing else. I don't want to carry a sniper rifle, or a selective-fire weapon. I don't want to be a SWAT guy or a tactical commando, just Officer Friendly, who might have to interdict a school shooter by myself someday, or watch kids die. The typical school hallway in my area is 65 yards long. (Yes, we measured.) We have trained to interdict active shooters, in real school buildings, but many of us, IF we follow policy, are handicapped in our ability to engage at 65 yards.

I am glad I am nearer the end of my career than the beginning; it will be sweet to be able to slide an X300 onto my P229 when I go to bed at night, after retirement, and not worry about it being a violation of anyone's orders. Ditto for being able to pick up a Marlin .357 lever rifle if someone is trying to kick the front door down. I am not meaning to sound like a crybaby, just sayin' that not all LE personnel have as much freedom as some folks think.
 
I have retired from doing law enforcement, but during my years, I have observed some interesting things. First of all, most cops cannot shoot very well. Now by most, I mean at least 50-75% cannot put six rounds on a silhouette at 25 yards under stress (stress being someone yelling at them, lightly poking them, or otherwise distracting them when shooting, NOT with the silhouette target shooting back at them, like real life). Try it. Find a willing cop, and then stand next to him on the range, have him try to maintain cover behind the barricade while delivering fire, shoot for time (six shots, 6-8 seconds), and "distract" him (or her), without actually tugging or physically disturbing his hands, arms, etc, or directly disrupting the shots. Do these officers with lesser shooting abilities need bigger, meaner armaments? Maybe. But the answer is not machineguns. For officers less handy with a handgun, a shotgun makes a better defensive weapon. To simplify, if one cannot shoot a handgun well, a shotgun might give them better hits. Many officers know this, and will grab the shotgun whenever they can, if a potential gunfight is a strong probability.
 
On a practical level, agency regulations mean that I am less well-armed than the average seriously-armed Texan. (I work for a very large PD.) If I jump through enough hoops, I can carry a semi-auto AR15 or Mini-14, with no magnifying optics installed. My primary duty pistol must be one of several specified .40 autos. I am allowed two shotgun models, and only two sizes of buckshot, and slugs are a gray area. Back-up handgun regs are a bit more relaxed. I can legally carry other weapons and ammo, but can expect to be punished if I use them, and left on my own, without agency backing, during ensuing legal proceedings, even if it was a legal/justifiable use of force.

In 2007, a edict was issued that banned attaching any illumination devices to any of our firearms, and that edict extended to weapons we use defensively during our personal time. (Lasers have always been banned; not that I care for lasers, anyway.) Finally, in 2010, after the command staff studied the situation to death, we may use lights on our weapons, after taking a training course, but only certain weapons, certain lights, and in the case of handguns, buying a specified and quite expensive duty rig that accommodates the mounted light on the holstered pistol, even if the main time I really want to mount the light on the weapon is at home, where I don't wear my duty rig, anyway. (I need to have the holster to take the class.) Moreover, that specified holster is not made for the P229, so I would have to switch duty pistols, or at least acquire yet another duty pistol, on top of all the other complications.

Back to optics on rifles; only three training classes were offered, to certify officers to use Aimpoints or EOtechs. So, a few dozen officers, out of several thousand, can actually mount optics on their weapons. I lost my ability to use the A2 rear sight accurately, under very bright or dim lighting conditions, about three years ago. I leave the AR15 locked up; I can shoot a 4" .357 GP100 "backup" handgun with greater confidence in hitting something.

I would be GLAD, as a police officer, to be able to carry the same weapons as the public. I am lucky; some officers, working for other PDs, only get to carry one duty handgun, and nothing else. I don't want to carry a sniper rifle, or a selective-fire weapon. I don't want to be a SWAT guy or a tactical commando, just Officer Friendly, who might have to interdict a school shooter by myself someday, or watch kids die. The typical school hallway in my area is 65 yards long. (Yes, we measured.) We have trained to interdict active shooters, in real school buildings, but many of us, IF we follow policy, are handicapped in our ability to engage at 65 yards.

I am glad I am nearer the end of my career than the beginning; it will be sweet to be able to slide an X300 onto my P229 when I go to bed at night, after retirement, and not worry about it being a violation of anyone's orders. Ditto for being able to pick up a Marlin .357 lever rifle if someone is trying to kick the front door down. I am not meaning to sound like a crybaby, just sayin' that not all LE personnel have as much freedom as some folks think.

A very informative and well thought out post.

I also know may departments, even those locally that issues AR-15s, that do not allow any sort of optics, lights or other aiming aids on their weapons. This is a severe shortcoming on behalf of the command staff who do not really understand the needs of the officer or the capabilities that should be available to them.

This also illustrate the fallacy of "I'm so pissed that LEOs can have all sorts of cool toys I can't" While that may be the case for a small percentage it is not true for most officers. I can have an AR with optics at home, but an officer in a school shooting is probably stuck with irons because of the brass. Same with pistols, I can carry whatever I want at the grocery store, but an officer may be extremely limited in what they can carry and how.

The law restricting civilian purchase of NFA weapons is just wrong. That is beyond doubt. But don't assume that cops have access to all sorts of stuff we don't. Generally, that's not the case.


As an aside, Rexster, what patrol rifle would you use if you had your choice, including optics and the like?
 
They named off a list of 8-10 felonies that wouldn't keep you off the APD. But the same ones would keep you from having a GFL, much less owning a firearm in general (which they failed to mention). So yes, on that part, it is easier.


who is they? got a link? not wnd or prison planet et al if you can help it. bearing in mind that a cop convicted of a felony is barred from having a gun unless hes got a pardon. did they say that the guys could admit to having done these things? or been convicted? its in the details here and i think you missed some
 
Rexster's right on target. LEOs carry what their departments permit them to carry and what the department issues to them. Usually that's a pistol and a shotgun. Departments that can afford to may include a semiauto "patrol rifle" in a supervisor's vehicle and ones with more money may include a patrol rifle in each cruiser, but most departments just can't afford them after expending their budget on a pistol for each officer and a shotgun for each cruiser.

By way of illustration, a local benefactor donated the money so an adjacent county's sheriff's department could purchase patrol rifles for each cruiser after an incident in which officers died while pinned down by a kid with an SKS shooting from his parent's house in a rural area. While they waited for better armed backup to arrive and force the teen to stay under cover so they could assist the wounded officers who had originally responded, the kid potted away with them with relative impunity with what we consider to be a pretty low grade semiauto rifle. The officers had a shotgun per cruiser and pistols but were stuck with just their vehicles for concealment. Officers with personal semiauto ARs got there before the SWAT teams and used the greater range and accuracy of their rifles to cover the windows and doors of the teen's house while other officers went after the wounded.

This simply illustrates that all LEOs do not have unlimited access to everything technologically available even if SOME LEOs do. The number of departments that don't have SWAT teams or NFA weapons, or even semiauto ARs, probably would surprise folks. There are those that do have them that simply don't have the poor administrative control of their SWAT teams or officers use of weapons so that we don't hear about them. Those that can't seem to remember their "protect and serve" relationship to the public are the real bad apples.
 
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I don't have a problem with LE having whatever weapons are needed for threats they are likely to face, especially with the probability of terrorist attacks. While they have been (thankfully!) rare in the US, and the car bomb (which cannot be defended against with firearms) seems to be the favored weapon of terrorists, there is always the possibility of a mass hostage taking (e.g., the Beslan school hostage crisis) or shooting. But, we "hoi polloi" should have access to the same weapons. LE are public servants; we do not serve them, nor should we elevate them above us. LE should also not be given "area destruction" weapons like Claymore mines, cluster bombs and such, but no one has really talked about that anyway.
 
LE should also not be given "area destruction" weapons like Claymore mines, cluster bombs and such, but no one has really talked about that anyway.
No, that's true. However, the primary uses for full-auto fire come with similar levels of collateral damage (and often at even greater range than small explosive munitions). Our police officers operate in our society, in our communities, in our towns and cities. Not on a battlefield. Automatic fire, almost by definition, produces stray rounds. Stray rounds are completely unacceptable in the civilian world.

(Yes, stray rounds happen with handguns and semi-auto carbines, too. How much better shot placement could we reasonably expect from the "happy switch")

I'm not against officers being allowed to have the tools to do the job -- including automatic arms. However, as a practical matter, I think those tools -- in 99% of cases -- are handguns, shotguns, and various "Title I" rifles.
 
threats they are likely to face, especially with the probability of terrorist attacks.

and here it is the 800 pound gorilla
 
threats they are likely to face, especially with the probability of terrorist attacks.

and here it is: the 800 pound gorilla

What 800-pound gorilla? What terrorist attacks are you talking about? The terrorist attacks that have been carried out on U.S. soil haven't been things that could be handled by the most heavily armed SWAT team in the nation. The bomb in Times Square, the jetliners used in the 9/11 attacks and the van used in destruction of the Murrah Federal Building weren't things you could shoot. The only way you could use firearms to deal with a biological attack or "dirty" nuke is to shoot those delivering the weapons before they can be set off and a handgun, shotgun or semi-automatic rifle should be adequate for that. Otherwise, protective clothing and easily administered antidotes would seem far more useful.

I am not trying to minimize the additional challenges faced by law enforcement today. However, I do think there is an unhealthy trend toward a paramilitary mindset when it comes to dealing with too many of them. In fairness, it should be pointed out the police are responding to years of calls to "get tough" on crime. Since the police, with or without tactical gear, have always been as tough on crime as resources and politics would permit, the solution was to look and act tougher.

Our best defense against terrorist attacks isn't more firepower; it's more manpower, it's better intelligence and better coordination among agencies.
 
I voted that there should be no restrictions, but I don't believe any law abiding citizen should have restrictions either.

*ding ding ding* Winnah!!

What part of 'shall not be infringed' are some of these folks misunderstanding?
 
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