I would bet that traffic accidents account for more death than criminals using guns, knives, fists, clubs, whatever. So maybe 10 officers setting up speedtraps IS better than having those officers off tracking down guys buying a few joints, guys who stole a bike that wasn't chained up, or the dozens of other calls that are the norm when you take out all the traffic offences from an officer's day.
Should traffic stops be abandoned ?
- Thread starter S&W 910
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who here pays the full fine for tickets ?
when i and everyone i know gets a ticket my lawyer gets it thrown out every time and charges me between 50.00 and 100.00 bucks and it does not go on your driving record.
you might want to call a lawyer who advertises traffic violations next time you get a ticket
when i and everyone i know gets a ticket my lawyer gets it thrown out every time and charges me between 50.00 and 100.00 bucks and it does not go on your driving record.
you might want to call a lawyer who advertises traffic violations next time you get a ticket
BulletFan
Member
I can't believe what I'm reading...
I'm not judging anyone here or trying to imply that anyone is wrong, but I find it very interesting that so many people that have no problem obeying he laws set out for carrying a weapon, but put up such a fight when it comes to simple traffic rules. You don't have a problem leaving the gun in the car when you go in to a bar, a school or somewhere else where it's not permitted, but when it comes to the speed limit...who cares?
Why is it that as law abiding citizens we are selective about which laws we obey and which we don't.
Speed limits are in place to protect the many. Not single out the few. DUI/DWI laws and limitations are in place to protect the many, not the few. Yea, I think it's true that as a whole we're suppose to not care about the few who decide to drink and drive, but you know what, I care more about the people NOT drinking that could possibly get killed or injured by said driver.
When you drink and you drive, you are irresponsible, any way you slice it. If you drink and drive and get pulled over by a cop doing his or her job, it's YOUR fault, not the cops.
Matt
I'm not judging anyone here or trying to imply that anyone is wrong, but I find it very interesting that so many people that have no problem obeying he laws set out for carrying a weapon, but put up such a fight when it comes to simple traffic rules. You don't have a problem leaving the gun in the car when you go in to a bar, a school or somewhere else where it's not permitted, but when it comes to the speed limit...who cares?
Why is it that as law abiding citizens we are selective about which laws we obey and which we don't.
Speed limits are in place to protect the many. Not single out the few. DUI/DWI laws and limitations are in place to protect the many, not the few. Yea, I think it's true that as a whole we're suppose to not care about the few who decide to drink and drive, but you know what, I care more about the people NOT drinking that could possibly get killed or injured by said driver.
When you drink and you drive, you are irresponsible, any way you slice it. If you drink and drive and get pulled over by a cop doing his or her job, it's YOUR fault, not the cops.
Matt
Every police officer hears it sooner or later, and I heard it here so I thought I'd address it.
"Why aren't you out there doing something about the real criminals?"
1. If the police are to be a deterrent they have to be visible. No where are we more visible than on the side of the road, lights flashing with a car pulled over. I know of at least two occasions where real criminals have stated in interrogations in neighboring jurisdictions that they chose not to come to ours because they saw a lot of cars getting stopped.
2. We receive more complaints about speeding than anything else; from the public we serve.
3. People are more likely to be killed, maimed, etc., by someone else's car, than by their gun, knife, fists, etc.
4. We often catch real criminals in traffic stops. Sometimes people that have been on the run for years.
If you don't want the police enforcing traffic laws then petition your legislature to remove them from the books.
"Why aren't you out there doing something about the real criminals?"
1. If the police are to be a deterrent they have to be visible. No where are we more visible than on the side of the road, lights flashing with a car pulled over. I know of at least two occasions where real criminals have stated in interrogations in neighboring jurisdictions that they chose not to come to ours because they saw a lot of cars getting stopped.
2. We receive more complaints about speeding than anything else; from the public we serve.
3. People are more likely to be killed, maimed, etc., by someone else's car, than by their gun, knife, fists, etc.
4. We often catch real criminals in traffic stops. Sometimes people that have been on the run for years.
If you don't want the police enforcing traffic laws then petition your legislature to remove them from the books.
Parker Dean
Member
I almost believe the "it's for public safety" line, until i think about where the money goes.
Be interesting to see just how keen the State is about enforcing traffic laws if the money collected went somewhere else, like private charities or a lottery of some sort.
Be interesting to see just how keen the State is about enforcing traffic laws if the money collected went somewhere else, like private charities or a lottery of some sort.
Around here, Community Service for Class 'C' fines goes (I think) eight hours per each hundred dollars of the fine. Sitting or "laying out" a fine is a hundred dollars per 24 hours in jail.
Laying out a fine costs the County in meals and basic jail kit issued to each incoming inmate. Community Service costs the county less, but each officer supervising those doing Community Service has to be paid, and could be doing something else.
Personally, I think that Class 'C' fines should be dealt with by public flogging, one lash per fifty or hundred dollars. Community Service should be restricted to those whom cannot be flogged for medical reasons.
Flogging is an actual deterrent, where as paying a fine doesn't change the behavior of a significant portion of the people I see receiving Class 'C' tickets.
Flogging would remove the temptation of revenue generation.
Just my $0.02 worth.
LawDog
Laying out a fine costs the County in meals and basic jail kit issued to each incoming inmate. Community Service costs the county less, but each officer supervising those doing Community Service has to be paid, and could be doing something else.
Personally, I think that Class 'C' fines should be dealt with by public flogging, one lash per fifty or hundred dollars. Community Service should be restricted to those whom cannot be flogged for medical reasons.
Flogging is an actual deterrent, where as paying a fine doesn't change the behavior of a significant portion of the people I see receiving Class 'C' tickets.
Flogging would remove the temptation of revenue generation.
Just my $0.02 worth.
LawDog
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
+1 for flogging, at least in general (not sure about its application to traffic violations). In this day and age, where people "take offense" at the slightest provocation and are all worried about "self esteem" and the like, I'll bet public humiliation, that hurt no less, would be a serious deterrent. Given the centuries old history of public corporal punishment, it's hard to argue it would be cruel or unusual.
Taurus 66
Member
The auto industries should just make cars with sophisticated onboard computers that test you before you are allowed to start the engine:
Car: "Eye Chart. Please read bottom line and and speak into the microphone."
You: "F-P-T-O-Z-L-P-E"
Car: "What is your destination? Please type in."
You: "Southtown Plaza, Henrietta, NY"
Car: "Please exhale into the breathalyzer."
You blow into the tube and test negative for alcohol
Car: "You are so-ber"
Car: "Will you be breaking any of the state's 2,338 traffic laws? Please type in."
You: "No"
Car: "Invalid. Will you be breaking any of the state's 2,338 traffic laws? Please type in."
You: "Yes"
Car: "Congratulations! You may now start your engine. A general traffic infraction ticket has been generated and will be mailed tomorrow to your current street address. Allow 2-5 business days."
Car: "Eye Chart. Please read bottom line and and speak into the microphone."
You: "F-P-T-O-Z-L-P-E"
Car: "What is your destination? Please type in."
You: "Southtown Plaza, Henrietta, NY"
Car: "Please exhale into the breathalyzer."
You blow into the tube and test negative for alcohol
Car: "You are so-ber"
Car: "Will you be breaking any of the state's 2,338 traffic laws? Please type in."
You: "No"
Car: "Invalid. Will you be breaking any of the state's 2,338 traffic laws? Please type in."
You: "Yes"
Car: "Congratulations! You may now start your engine. A general traffic infraction ticket has been generated and will be mailed tomorrow to your current street address. Allow 2-5 business days."
Optical Serenity
Member
traffic stops are a small portion of traffic enforcement as a whole. There are many ways (traffic stops, cameras, sobriety check points, etc etc) that law enforcement on traffic laws can occur.
That being said...think back on last year for a minute. I know that the most dangerous times of last year, where the most harm almost came to me and my family, was on the public roadways. Yes, its true...traffic related deaths and injuries are a huge problem.
I don't do traffic stops because I particularly like the dangerous it poses to me. How many of you want to stand on the side of a busy road or highway and feel the wind off a Mack truck as it passes two feet behind you at 70mph? No one!
We do it because of all the little infants, children, preganent moms, dads, grandmas, and even animals I've scraped up off the roads. I'm tired of fatality accidents.
Everytime I get a drunk off the road, or cite someone for stop sign violation, or what have you, I feel like I'm doing a service to those who have died due to someone else's carelessness.
That being said...think back on last year for a minute. I know that the most dangerous times of last year, where the most harm almost came to me and my family, was on the public roadways. Yes, its true...traffic related deaths and injuries are a huge problem.
I don't do traffic stops because I particularly like the dangerous it poses to me. How many of you want to stand on the side of a busy road or highway and feel the wind off a Mack truck as it passes two feet behind you at 70mph? No one!
We do it because of all the little infants, children, preganent moms, dads, grandmas, and even animals I've scraped up off the roads. I'm tired of fatality accidents.
Everytime I get a drunk off the road, or cite someone for stop sign violation, or what have you, I feel like I'm doing a service to those who have died due to someone else's carelessness.
MrTwigg
Member
Hey Bulletfan,
+1 !
Honorable mention to Lawdog for flogging
!
+1 !
Honorable mention to Lawdog for flogging
!Powderman
Member
And that, sportsfans, is the REAL reason for traffic stops. Not revenue.
In order to generate enough revenue to fund our Department, this means that each one of us--including our Chief--would have to write $7,000 worth of tickets EACH SHIFT.
And, since most of the citations would go to non-Native Americans (I'm a Tribal cop), we wouldn't see ANY of the money. We would be citing folks into Tacoma Municipal Court, or Pierce County. (I'm sure they would like the revenue, but that isn't the way we do business.)
And, speed traps? I don't think so. I don't need to set a speed trap--which is illegal in this State, anyway.
I sit on an open road, which is straight for at least two miles in each direction, flat and level, in broad daylight with my highbeams on. And I don't even pull someone over unless they are going at least 15 over; most of the time, a quick flash of the light bar will do wonders.
Now, ask me where I get my biggest amount of warrant arrests from?
Also, I have three words for anyone who wants us to discontinue traffic enforcement:
Timothy McVeigh.
mordechaianiliewicz
Member
The Industry meaning perpetuating Government. If you live in a small town, go down to the courthouse, watch the cases being brought up. Look at who are in jail and their economic status. Cases can go on for months, years even with discontinuances, etc. Keeps Judges, DA's, clerks, jailers, bondsmen, cops in business. More business, more money, keeps the "Industry" going. Cynic, you bet your life.
__________________
He said it all. Maybe you could get some DWI stops on certain nights, and that sort of thing, but overall, this is about keeping the cops busy, cities funded, and the system running. Giving alot of people excuses to collect a paycheck.
__________________
He said it all. Maybe you could get some DWI stops on certain nights, and that sort of thing, but overall, this is about keeping the cops busy, cities funded, and the system running. Giving alot of people excuses to collect a paycheck.
Pork Fat
Member
Speed and traffic policies
I can't believe that there is a blanket "good" or "bad" concerning traffic enforcement. That there are some oddly long and tediously slow speed zones
in some towns can not be denied by an honest observer. That there is vehicular hooliganism practiced daily in need of a response is also true.
The biggest beef I have with standard speeding tickets and red light cameras is the apparent suspension of "Innocent until proven guilty".
It has been acknowledged in several major cities that stop light timing was sped up after initial revenues from camera tickets did not meet expectations.
These cameras are run by contractors, not police. The camera outfits will suggest ways to increase the take, and ever-strapped municipalities can be
easily tempted. This process can easily make some cynical, as the original safety and compliance objective is corrupted by the free money-the take shared by the contractor. In some areas, rear ending accidents increased
as paranoid motorists stopped short at the first sign of yellow.
As far as speeding is concerned, I guess George Carlin had it right years ago-
There are only two kinds of drivers, the ones that drive too slow, and the ones that drive too fast. Naturally we each feel that we provide the best yardstick. The guy that races up MY street is obviously in need of a felony stop with full cavity search, while the Left Lane Bandit holding up my reasonably swift journey needs to have his Prius rolled into a tube.
No short, certain answer seems to catch it 100%.
I can't believe that there is a blanket "good" or "bad" concerning traffic enforcement. That there are some oddly long and tediously slow speed zones
in some towns can not be denied by an honest observer. That there is vehicular hooliganism practiced daily in need of a response is also true.
The biggest beef I have with standard speeding tickets and red light cameras is the apparent suspension of "Innocent until proven guilty".
It has been acknowledged in several major cities that stop light timing was sped up after initial revenues from camera tickets did not meet expectations.
These cameras are run by contractors, not police. The camera outfits will suggest ways to increase the take, and ever-strapped municipalities can be
easily tempted. This process can easily make some cynical, as the original safety and compliance objective is corrupted by the free money-the take shared by the contractor. In some areas, rear ending accidents increased
as paranoid motorists stopped short at the first sign of yellow.
As far as speeding is concerned, I guess George Carlin had it right years ago-
There are only two kinds of drivers, the ones that drive too slow, and the ones that drive too fast. Naturally we each feel that we provide the best yardstick. The guy that races up MY street is obviously in need of a felony stop with full cavity search, while the Left Lane Bandit holding up my reasonably swift journey needs to have his Prius rolled into a tube.
No short, certain answer seems to catch it 100%.
orangeninja
Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2003
- Messages
- 3,117
I think some discount too easily exactly how much crime is stopped because of traffic stops...For instance, gang and drug interdiction is a proven method to deter or at least increase the risk in trafficing in drugs and gang activity.
Additionally, occasionally you get "the big one" when performing a routine traffic stop. Timothy McVeigh was caught in a routine stop.
Sometimes you save a life, I recently saw a video of an officer performing a routine traffic stop where the driver was a convicted sex offender on parole who had just kidnapped a minor and had him in the car with him.
Additionally, occasionally you get "the big one" when performing a routine traffic stop. Timothy McVeigh was caught in a routine stop.
Sometimes you save a life, I recently saw a video of an officer performing a routine traffic stop where the driver was a convicted sex offender on parole who had just kidnapped a minor and had him in the car with him.
Calumus
Member
Alright, I'm having a little problem with some of the replies on this thread. "Traffic laws are only for the safety of the general public" sounds kind of like the excuse given for most gun laws. Seeing as how when they did away with the federally mandated 55MPH law a couple of years ago rates of traffic fatalities dropped, I think the safety issue is out. 85% of the American population drives at least 5mph over the limit was what a study I read a couple of years ago said, and why shouldn't they? The interstate highway network was designed way back in the 40's and 50's with the idea that the "cars of tommorow" would be able to safely cruise along at 80mph. Well, tommorow's here and even a little prius can get stopped from 80 and perform evasive manuvers at that speed, so why haven't the speed limits gone up any more? Money, plain and simple. Here in Jersey ANY ticket you get in a 65 zone is doubled. Speeding, careless driving, turn signal doesn't work, everything. I live about 10 miles from the Penn border off rte 80, and the record here that I've seen was 11 Troopers hiding in bushes, behind over passes and in the emergency vehicle u-turns between my exit (12) and the one for Mt. Olive (25) That's 11 revenuers camped out in 13 miles. I'm not saying there should be no traffic stops, far from it. When you're moving along with traffic doing 80 on the highway and everything's going fine till you see that 1 idiot weaving in and out of traffic trying to do 95, he should get yanked, but to hand someone a several hundred dollar fine on top of hundreds of dollars in insurance surcharges for doing 10 over on an empty 8 lane highway is ludicrous. About 10 years ago I was hit head on by a state trooper, it was snowing out and he hit a patch of ice and spun out. He came across all 8 lanes of rte 80 and the median and caught me dead center as I was pulling into the exit lane to get off the highway. We were both going pretty slowly so there wasn't that much damage to either car. I followed him back to his barracks so he could fill out his report in a little bit safer enviornment. What was the 1st thing his C.O. asked when we walked through the door together? "Was there any damage to the radar unit?" The guy the trooper just hit head on is standing right behind him and this guy wanted to know if the income generator was OK.:banghead: Forgive me if I'm going on a bit of a rant here, but it just bugs me that on any given day if you're on 80 right before the Trooper's shift change you will have 5 or 6 blow past you at well over 100, or you'll see a Trooper kissing 90 and then pulling off into the median to make sure we untrained drivers don't hurt ourselves by doing 72. I don't know if anyone here reads Car & Driver but Brock Yates, the guy who set up the real cannonball run is one of their editors and had an idea I agree with whole heartedly. In Europe they have higher speed limits because their drivers have to go through more training than we do here. They should have a 2 tier liscence system. Tier 1 would be the same as it is now, you take your joke of a driver's test, pass, then have to obey all posted limits and stay in the right lanes on highways. Tier 2 would be for people who are willing to get extra training and take a more difficult test. We would get an extra 15-20mph over the posted limit on highways and get the left lanes to ourselves. This would solve most of the problems you have with traffic flow now, which in turn would reduce the accident rate even more. That's it, I'm done, again sorry about the rant but driving is my other passion and just like guns it gets screwed up by a few ignorant people doing stupid things and making the 6 o'clock news.
Cheers,
Shawn
Cheers,
Shawn
fastbolt
Member
We often catch real criminals in traffic stops. Sometimes people that have been on the run for years.
Ditto, and then some ...
Stopping vehicles for real traffic violations, even annoying infractions, generally results in more criminals being located and arrested. I don't have to even work hard at remembering finding stolen vehicles, folks with outstanding arrest/bench warrants for drugs & violence, etc., etc. ...
One time a buddy of mine stopped a car on a rural highway for a minor traffic violation and apprehended a seriously dangerous person wanted for kidnaping in another state. He had a cocked revolver sitting on the front seat, covered and concealed with some cloth.
I remember when I was training new people, and all we had to do to get them more self-initiated arrests each shift ... to add to their dispatched "go arrest someone at the following crime scene" arrests ... was to stop more moving vehicles.
I always gave more warnings than tickets, unless I was working a special detail because of public complaints of certain violations ... and I never had a hard time finding and arresting actual criminals behind the wheel of a car, or as a passenger. It used to really puzzle some of the 'less proactive' folks, too, especially since one of the beats where I used to find and arrest real criminals in cars was a rather affluent area ... which just happened to have a few freeway exits and entrances that made it convenient for criminals to pass through, or stop and browse, apparently considering some "easy" criminal activity with handy freeways escapes ... and violating various rules of the road in the process.
Of course, if people want less traffic enforcement ... they should probably be prepared for more traffic accidents/collisions, including those involving injuries/death, and more criminals being active and mobile, feeling free to move about without worrying about getting caught while driving to & from their nefarious deeds.
Ditto, and then some ...
Stopping vehicles for real traffic violations, even annoying infractions, generally results in more criminals being located and arrested. I don't have to even work hard at remembering finding stolen vehicles, folks with outstanding arrest/bench warrants for drugs & violence, etc., etc. ...
One time a buddy of mine stopped a car on a rural highway for a minor traffic violation and apprehended a seriously dangerous person wanted for kidnaping in another state. He had a cocked revolver sitting on the front seat, covered and concealed with some cloth.
I remember when I was training new people, and all we had to do to get them more self-initiated arrests each shift ... to add to their dispatched "go arrest someone at the following crime scene" arrests ... was to stop more moving vehicles.
I always gave more warnings than tickets, unless I was working a special detail because of public complaints of certain violations ... and I never had a hard time finding and arresting actual criminals behind the wheel of a car, or as a passenger. It used to really puzzle some of the 'less proactive' folks, too, especially since one of the beats where I used to find and arrest real criminals in cars was a rather affluent area ... which just happened to have a few freeway exits and entrances that made it convenient for criminals to pass through, or stop and browse, apparently considering some "easy" criminal activity with handy freeways escapes ... and violating various rules of the road in the process.
Of course, if people want less traffic enforcement ... they should probably be prepared for more traffic accidents/collisions, including those involving injuries/death, and more criminals being active and mobile, feeling free to move about without worrying about getting caught while driving to & from their nefarious deeds.
MrTwigg
Member
Oh yeah, him too !
'nuff said !
Powderman said:Timothy McVeigh.
'nuff said !
haole_boySS
Member
I like the redlight cameras and speed cameras. I wish that when an actual cop pulls you over, you got the choice...
"you were doing 65 in a 50. you have 2 choices...$65 fine and 2 points on your license or $150 fine and no points" "please sign on the line of your choice"
Personally, I would ALWAYS choose the steeper fine. Id rather pay the extra money right there, than allow my insurance company to get ahold of it and get me for multiple hundreds more in the following year.
I live in MD and travel on the beltway everyday. (Washington Beltway 495) Most of my travels are in the Prince Georges county side of town. During traffic times, you will ALMOST never see a PG cop with someone pulled over. You better be doing 110mph sideways.
On the other hand, good ol MSP will have speed traps set up on the beltway during rush hour. The most annoying thing about that is they are on the shoulder running radar and laser. Frequently, they will gun someone doing over the speed limit and run out into the beltway to flag them down. (Keep in mind that most all the people traveling on 495 are doing an average of 65mph) Is this safe? Is it worth the risk of getting run over, causing multiple cars to slam on the brakes, swerving, etc?
Alot of people in this topic have been preaching about how the cops are out there for traffic safety. Please explain the safety aspect of my 100% accurate example.
I will also say that to EVERY SINGLE ENTRANCE to the 495, 295, 395, 695 beltways systems in the wash met area......have signs posted telling you that pedestrian traffic is illegal on the beltway system. If you went to court to tell a judge that you clipped a MSP trooper.....what would you say exactly?
"uh your honor, the trooper in question ran across 2 open traffic lanes to flag the motorist in the lane to the right of me. The trooper was in my lane and there were cars on either side of me. where was I supposed to go? the trooper put me in that position."
Again, thats not far fetched. The MSP does it all the time.
I guess the point is that I would like to see less cops on the street. Like alot of others have said...Get the guy driving erratic, not the guy doing 65 in a 55 (as he flows with traffic).
JMHO
Andy
"you were doing 65 in a 50. you have 2 choices...$65 fine and 2 points on your license or $150 fine and no points" "please sign on the line of your choice"
Personally, I would ALWAYS choose the steeper fine. Id rather pay the extra money right there, than allow my insurance company to get ahold of it and get me for multiple hundreds more in the following year.
I live in MD and travel on the beltway everyday. (Washington Beltway 495) Most of my travels are in the Prince Georges county side of town. During traffic times, you will ALMOST never see a PG cop with someone pulled over. You better be doing 110mph sideways.
On the other hand, good ol MSP will have speed traps set up on the beltway during rush hour. The most annoying thing about that is they are on the shoulder running radar and laser. Frequently, they will gun someone doing over the speed limit and run out into the beltway to flag them down. (Keep in mind that most all the people traveling on 495 are doing an average of 65mph) Is this safe? Is it worth the risk of getting run over, causing multiple cars to slam on the brakes, swerving, etc?
Alot of people in this topic have been preaching about how the cops are out there for traffic safety. Please explain the safety aspect of my 100% accurate example.
I will also say that to EVERY SINGLE ENTRANCE to the 495, 295, 395, 695 beltways systems in the wash met area......have signs posted telling you that pedestrian traffic is illegal on the beltway system. If you went to court to tell a judge that you clipped a MSP trooper.....what would you say exactly?
"uh your honor, the trooper in question ran across 2 open traffic lanes to flag the motorist in the lane to the right of me. The trooper was in my lane and there were cars on either side of me. where was I supposed to go? the trooper put me in that position."
Again, thats not far fetched. The MSP does it all the time.
I guess the point is that I would like to see less cops on the street. Like alot of others have said...Get the guy driving erratic, not the guy doing 65 in a 55 (as he flows with traffic).
JMHO
Andy
Manedwolf
member
Every time I hear people talking about in-car checks on safety, I just think of Fifth Element.
"You have just had an accident. You have one point left on your license."
"You have just had an accident. You have one point left on your license."
gunsmith
member
sw 910
if I gave the appearance of sarcasm I am truly sorry!
I am against those cameras, which are yellow light cameras really.
they are timed differently to catch people as they are run by private interest
if I gave the appearance of sarcasm I am truly sorry!
I am against those cameras, which are yellow light cameras really.
they are timed differently to catch people as they are run by private interest
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