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Should Utah Allow CCW w/o Permits?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by BearGriz, Feb 21, 2013.

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  1. BearGriz

    BearGriz Member

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    I have mixed feelings on this issue. It looks like our governor isn't too enthusiastic about "constitutional carry," but he isn't saying he'll veto either:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/55876539-90/concealed-gun-carry-herbert.html.csp

    We do about 77,000 each year (about 30% of those for out-of-state applicants):

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/55680230-90/utah-concealed-carry-gun.html.csp

    I wonder if the governor doesn't like the end of the CCW permit revenue stream. Personally, I sort of like the idea that applicants have to take some training. Some of us need more training than others (think of the man in Ogden, UT who illegally shot at retreating criminals a few weeks ago).

    On the other hand, I can also sympathize with the arguments that it isn't the business of the state whether I am carrying or not (as long as I am not a prohibited person or committing a crime). It is also nice to hear of some state governments securing more rights for us (we are seeing too much of the opposite in too many states).

    I have been considering getting a permit (for almost a year), but now I'll wait and see. Procrastination may pay off. :)
     
  2. akv3g4n

    akv3g4n Member

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    You should not need a permit to exercise your constitutional rights. It is still your responsibility to know the laws surrounding lethal force and defensive use of a firearm.

    If you need training for proper use of a firearm, you may obtain that at your discretion by whatever means you see fit (class, friend or family member). This should be the persons responsibility to ensure that they stay within the law and can effectively use the firearm for protection but should not be government mandated.
     
  3. Grassman

    Grassman Member

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    The one word that gets me is "allow". What are we kids? Last time I checked I've never been in trouble with the law, and I own a successful business. That makes it my right.
     
  4. gbran

    gbran Member

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    I liked the argument used in AZ when they went constitutional carry. They alraedy had legal open carry and saw no problem if someone simply covered their their open carry piece.
     
  5. JohnM

    JohnM Member

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    You asking about open or concealed?
    I thought Utah always had open carry just like Wyoming.
    We did away with a permit needed for concealed last year.
     
  6. archigos

    archigos Member

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    No. Being born human makes it your right.
     
  7. Hondodawg

    Hondodawg Member

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    I suspect if it does pass nearly all the states with reciprocal agreements will pull back on them.
     
  8. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Since I live in Arizona I had some concerns about no-license concealed carry, mainly because of a total lack of training requirements. But time has passed and the issues I expected have not happened. Even the 18 >21-year-old folks have behaved in a most commendable manner. Tell your governor to come down and look.
     
  9. ID-shooting

    ID-shooting Member

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    I only have one argument for a license to carry...Biden. Do you really want someone with the mental capacity and the "ideas" of what effective firearm use as him out in public with a loaded gun? Sometimes a little required training is a good thing.
     
  10. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    The vast majority of people who shouldn't be allowed to CCW already do if able and so inclined, and always will. They're called criminals, and probably have little opinion on this proposal, as it does not affect them either way. Think about it.
     
  11. k_dawg

    k_dawg Member

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    Should one require a permit for due-process rights, or the ability to read a newspaper?

    Same answer as with the 2nd.
     
  12. BearGriz

    BearGriz Member

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    Yeah, that guy scares me...and even more with a gun in his hand

    The more I think about it, the more I conclude that no training should be required (I'm the OP with the mixed feelings). Here is my train of thought:

    1. Maybe we could just require a certificate (similar to hunter education card here in Utah).
    2. Just take a class (online or in a class) that teaches you the laws.
    3. You wouldn't need to register, or have the card on you, you just need to have received the card before you carry.
    4. Not having received the card is just a secondary offense.
    5. OK, so what would be the first offense? Being caught with a firearm? No, not unless you were doing something wrong with it.
    6. So why would you be caught? An unjustified/illegal shooing? Trying to take it on an airplane?
    7. In those cases the offense is (in itself) enough to result in penalties.
    8. I suppose the reason to require training is prevent those primary offenses...so now we're just adding an enhancement penalty?
    9. It would have to be an enhancement because I don't like the idea of penalizing someone who carried concealed without a training card certification, used the weapon in a good shooting, and is now in trouble because they weren't trained in ways to avoid doing something that is illegal.
    10. Their only offense was not being trained in what not to do, otherwise they didn't do anything wrong.
    11. They ended up doing everything right (it was a good shoot) except get trained on avoiding the wrong things (things they didn't do!).

    OK, so I agree that it sort of doesn't add up unless you want to scare people into doing it by making it an enhancement penalty, which (on principle) I don't really like. Those who mess up will already be in trouble for doing something wrong.
     
  13. Lateck

    Lateck Member

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    As a legal carrying Arizonion,
    Yes, ALL states should allow it.

    Lateck,
     
  14. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Of course! Surprised anyone would even have to ask at this point.

    But they should still provide optional permits to help the residents with reciprocity from those states still stuck down the curve.
     
  15. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    Its worked well in AZ.

    I agree.

    I got my AZ permit before they went Constitutional Carry and I do plan on renewing it.

    In AZ, a permit also lets you CC in a bar (but not drink) and a few other things.
     
  16. splattergun

    splattergun Member

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    In Utah we already carry without permit in our vehicles, as they are considered an extension of our homes. Remember all the horrific doomsday predictions of unstoppable death in the streets from everyone driving around with guns?
    Quite the opposite result. Crime is down the past 2 years since vehicle carry came.

    I am all for constitutional carry. When was the last time you heard of a mass shooting in Vermont?
     
  17. 351 WINCHESTER

    351 WINCHESTER Member

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    It's no coinsidence that crime goes way down when the criminals know that lots of folks are packing heat.
     
  18. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    I know we keep saying that, but it doesn't actually seem to be based in realistic analysis. Too many factors influence crime rates, and too few folks ever carry in total, to really hold that up as more that a bit of propaganda.
     
  19. Plan2Live

    Plan2Live Member

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    In the interest of full disclosure I am a CWP instructor. On class day I spend 12 hours away from home, spend about 9 of those on my feet and at least 6 1/2 of those talking. In the end I walk away with maybe $200 net. So I certainly don't do it for the money.

    I am also a volunteer RSO at a local public range. Between my volunteer work at the range, my CWP class and helping another instructor with his very large classes in another city, I see appaling gun skills and am constantly amazed that more of these people don't hurt themselves or someone else. So based on these observations I am not in favor of 100% constitutional carry. Sorry, just my opinion.
     
  20. josiewales

    josiewales Member

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    No, being an AMERICAN makes it your right.
    Sorry had to throw that in there. :)
     
  21. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    No. That's NOT what the founders said. They said, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights ..."

    Being an American just puts you in a political context that recognizes the fact.
     
  22. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    I do too. Lots. And yet, they don't. So, despite our fears of blood in the streets, instances of lawful concealed carriers breaking the law or harming anyone unjustly are MINUSCULE, almost to the point of non-existence.

    And what passes for CCW training in many cases doesn't offer even a prayer of much improvement. No state-mandated 8 hour, or 6 hour, or 4 hour course is going to turn many of these goofs into safe and responsible gun-handlers. And yet, there is NO ACTUAL SOCIAL PROBLEM.

    Now, personally, I say freedom isn't free and it isn't necessarily safe. So if there was a risk to society from the untrained masses, I'd still be against forced requirements. However, that's not even the case, so doubly no.
     
  23. akv3g4n

    akv3g4n Member

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    Plan2Live-

    I think any responsible individual will take the initiative to learn the safe handling of firearms before carrying them outside the home. Irresponsible individuals will not, and, if forced to take a class will probably think they know better and not absorb much from the class anyway. You can't legislate responsibility.

    There are certainly plenty of chp holders in my state (which requires a 12 hour class prior to receiving a permit) that demonstrate the same unsafe practices that you describe. Education is never a bad thing but continually setting conditions that someone must meet before they can practice their constitutional rights is a slippery slope.....

    Thank you for dedicating your free time to educate people in being responsible for their own safety.
     
  24. josiewales

    josiewales Member

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    Hmm... Very well put, thank you.
     
  25. Inebriated

    Inebriated Member

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    Pretty much sums this thread up for me.
     
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