Should you be legally allowed to shoot someone over property?

Should you be legally allowed to shoot someone to defend your property?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 216 72.2%
  • No.

    Votes: 44 14.7%
  • Other (Please clarify).

    Votes: 39 13.0%

  • Total voters
    299
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TwitchALot

Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
283
Location
California
I'm very curious to see what you guys at THR think about this. Someone breaks into your home and steals... your wallet as you walk in. He's running out the back door. Should you be allowed to shoot him to retrieve your property? Why or why not?
 
Your poll question and your scenario are not the same. The poll question being very general and your scenario very specific. I would not shoot in your scenario. However, if someone was stealing my food and water after a hurricane, I would. Also, at night, if someone was stealing my dogs from my yard, and I didn't believe I could retrieve them in any other way, I would shoot.

IMHO, "property" is too vague for this poll.

I voted other.
 
I don't believe in taking a life over property. So I said no.
Now if I found him still in my house and didn't know his intention then BANG.

AFS
 
I voted "other." The question is too general, assuming that you know the intentions of someone breaking into your house. If I could be certain that I and my family were safe from harm, I wouldn't consider it moral to shoot someone to save material property. However, realistically, I'd have to consider a stranger in my house to be a threat to the lives of my family. If he didn't do exactly as I say once I confronted him, I would use potentially lethal force to stop him from what he's doing.
Marty
 
Everything in use of deadly force must be taken on a case by case basis using basic rules.

Good examples have been given already. If someone were starving and broke in to get some food, I wouldn't stop them. I'm no Javert.
If it were a Hurricane situation (which could happen here), or if I were out backpacking and someone were trying to steal my food (which could potentially kill me) I'd probably offer to share, but wouldn't let it go down like that.

Stealing my wallet? Would I pursue him? Probably not. Would I shoot? Probably not. I'd get a good description and call the po po. There's nothing in my wallet I couldn't replace with a few phone calls, bucks, and wasted hours at Motor Vehicle.

There are some who get fairly autoerotic at the idea of opening fire on someone at the slightest provocation. I am not one of them.

Do I think people should be allowed to use deadly force to defend their property? Yes. People should be given freedom and should be responsible for their choices.
Go ahead. Blow some poor slob away for stealing your wallet. Then explain to a jury or judge why you killed someone for taking stuff easily replaced. Better yet, explain it to your kids.
 
It depends on the property and the circumstances.

I would hold fire for trivial, easily replaced property whose absence would not imperil me.

There are times and places when the ABSENCE of certain carefully husbanded property, such as food, shelter, critical tools, and the like would emperil me or my family.

The idea that a criminal's life is worth more than the property they take is a relatively modern one. It wasn't all that long ago that a huge list of crimes came with the very real possibility of a death sentence, and so the idea of potentially killing someone over a crime whose penalty was death anyway didn't present the discrepancy it does today, which presents us with the possibility of killing someone over a crime whose probable punishment was probation.

Finally, while I'm certainly glad that we've reformed our notion of criminal justice, and no longer execute youths for theft, as a matter of principle, our society should not be in the business of *reducing* the risks of engaging in criminal activity.

We should be in the business of *maximizing* these risks. It is entirely to the benefit of society, and the honest people in it that the commission of serious criminal acts, especially violent crimes, maximally expose the criminal to legally and societally sanctioned violence only during the commission of the crime.

This motivates 2 things: first for the crime not to be committed at all, and second, to motivate the criminal to surrender peacefully and immediately so as to remove himself from the position of getting eligible for a thorough legal beating.

The message is simple: while committing crimes, you are a free and fair target for whatever anyone cares to dish out, until you surrender.

Edited to add:

Please note that the above is my statement of how it should be, not how it is. How it actually is varies wildly from one jurisdiction to the next. YMMV.
 
I vote no. You can chase someone off who is stealing or vandalizing your property, and you can be armed when you do it. And if he attacks you or puts you in reasonable fear of death or grevious bodily harm, you can defend yourself.
 
I am with Vern, the idea of self defense is all about defending onesself not shooting someone in the back as they flee. There was a time I would have voted yes, but the laws have changed, and I have gotten older and wiser.
 
Another qualified "Yes". Not in all circumstances for all property, but in general - Yes.
 
No you can't shoot someone over property, there exceptions and situations were if you thought your life was in danger it'd be permissable in a robbery situation.
 
In this circumstance he has broken his way into your dwelling and his taking away what might be your sustenance for the next month. As far as I'm concerned, he gave up all his rights to life and liberty once he broke into the private home.

It's not about 'killing someone over property', that's the words of the anti-castle doctrine Brady Bunch. It's about the principle, if he's willing to break into a home and steal, what is he not willing to do? Have you not seen the news stories where these people are discovered by the home owners, and what happens to the home owners afterwards? It's never pretty (unless the home owners are armed, trained and ready) He might as well have his buddies outside and leading you to them so they can ransack the rest of the house in peace.
 
from a legal standpoint, no....

from a personal standpoint... the only good thief is a dead one... and if a society would actually take that standpoint, it would be virtually scumbag free...
 
The simple answer to the poll question; "yes" one should be able to shoot someone to defend his/her property.

Property would have to be defined as would other circumstances. Instances have been noted before, but I likely would not shoot anyone who just snatched my wallet.

Consider this though. In the scenario, the dude snatches the wallet and hooks them out the door. I don't fire. Little did I know that his buddy was in the home office helping himself to the contents of my safe. He walks up on me as I draw down, but before I can fire, his buddy that I just let go shoots me. He just had a change of heart about letting his buddy get caught and came back to assist.

I know, it's just crazy speculation, every situation is different, and potentially dangerous.
 
If Someone Breaks In Your House They Are Fair Game.you Have To Asume They Will Do Harm To You And Your Family.if You Fail To Shoot Them Then You And You Family Could Be Harmed.
 
In this circumstance he has broken his way into your dwelling and his taking away what might be your sustenance for the next month. As far as I'm concerned, he gave up all his rights to life and liberty once he broke into the private home.
When someone breaks into your home, you can legally assume he is threatening you with deadly force and respond accordingly in most states. Arkansas law, for example, provides that any force used against a housebreaker or arsonist is reasonable force, and should criminal charges be lodged against the homeowner, the judge is obliged to read the law to the jury.

But again, you are not defending property, you are defending your life.
 
The Model Penal Code 3.06(1)(a), which is reflected in most state codes, allows for the use of non-deadly force to prevent someone from taking your property or to prevent or stop trespass upon land if three conditions are met.
(1)the other person’s interference with the property is unlawful
(2)the intrusion affects property in the defendant’s possession; and
(3)non-deadly force is immediately necessary

Certain state laws may vary accordingly but this is the general theme of things.
 
For a wallet... maybe (what if you had 10,000 cash in that wallet?)

When someone steals from another, they steal the time that it took to produce the thing that they stole. Stealing from someone makes the one being stolen from a slave.

We live in a time when the concept of insurance enables us to minimize the loss so that we don't have to kill someone in order to get the value of our efforts back.

But supposing this was a hundred years ago and the man just stole your horse? That could mean your life. Suppose you had just laid out your life savings for king tut's wallet? Now is it okay to shoot?

Civilized society gives us a method for prosecution of those who steal so that we don't have to take the law into our own hands. In THIS society at THIS time, it is not appropriate to shoot someone for petty theft of property if no lethal force was used against you. Generically, though, you should be allowed to shoot someone over property (to protect your cattle, to protect your livelihood, to protect your food supply, to protect those things you need to live). To allow your stuff to be taken with no form of retribution is to become a slave.
 
On the other hand the law permits defense of habitation in most circumstances. The are three approaches that states follow.

Early Common Law
Could kill an intruder if the homeowner believed that such force was necessary to prevent an imminent and unlawful entry of his house. Fire away.

Middle Approach – 3 steps
(1)other person intends to unlawfully enter the house
(2)the intruder intends to injure him or someone else in the house, or commit a felony; and
(3)deadly force is necessary to repel the intrusion

Narrow Approach
A person is justified in using deadly force on someone else if he believes:
(1)the other person intends an unlawful and immediate entry of a house
(2)the BG intends to commit a forcible felony – which is a felony committed by violence and surprise like murder and rape, etc.
(3)such force is necessary to prevent the intrusion

I don’t remember how the states line up in regard to these three views of defense of habitation but I would wager most of them are on the last two, mainly number three. Under the hypo killing the wallet thef would only be justified under early common law.
 
At what point should I be able to use force to stop someone from taking something which is mine - $1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000, more?

I would / will follow laws in place on this subject of using force, but believe laws on this subject should strongly lean toward the property owner / victim. Why should I be required to let a thief take ANYTHING that is mine?

If a thief walks up to me and demands my money, wallet, and jewelry, but makes no threat of will happen should I choose not to hand these items over would anyone object to my fighting to retain my property?

How about if a thief comes onto my property in the middle of the night and I catch them after they loaded my property into their pickup and they are set to pull away. They have thousands of dollars of my property with no chance of getting caught as they have no license plate on the vehicle and the police are 30 minutes away. Am I expected to just let them go?

I believe this country was better when criminals had fear of an armed victim who might catch them during their act of thievery.

I would rather that I be able to order them to halt and let them catch my wrath should they choose to attempt to harm me or leave. If a thief gets hurt or dies during his illegal acts he has no one to blame but himself.

I am deeply concerned that thieves can choose to harm us, but we place ourselves in jeapardy by for their illegal actions. How honest people are sued and have their lives ruined because a criminal breaks into a home and hurts himself or he gets hurt by the homeowner - or maybe shot and killed. The property owner / victim did not choose for things to happen, but they are the ones to pay the most depending on how things turn out.

Things have gotten out of place and only recently with various states putting in place "castle doctrin" laws is the victim now getting some rights.

Luke
 
I voted "Other". I don't want law making it "legal", I simply do not want any law making it illegal. I wouldn't object to law that forbids law suits being brought against you because some thief got hurt when you stopped his crime with force.

I answer the "why" with the fact that there is little or no chance you'll see your property ever again if the thief gets away with it. If he runs and drops your property, though, stop shooting or don't shoot as the case may be, unless you can prove in court that this guy would have caused harm to you or someone else, such as if he turns to shoot at you, etc., etc. (Keep a sharp eye out in case he has some fellow cospirators out and about.)

Woody
 
It's not about 'killing someone over property', that's the words of the anti-castle doctrine Brady Bunch.
In many case, I agree with this. Much of what we call 'shooting over property' is really shooting a potential threat - someone to be considered a viable threat to life or limb because that individual has encroached upon a personal safety zone.

But sometimes it's not so simple, as in the case of the guy who shot the burglars who were stealing his neighbor's stuff. They posed no immediate threat to the shooter - he truly WAS 'shooting to protect property'. I dunno if I can go that far, myself.

But being legal and being moral are two different things - I'm not sure that I have issues with the presence of legally sanctioned occupational hazards associated with being a burglar.

as a matter of principle, our society should not be in the business of *reducing* the risks of engaging in criminal activity.

We should be in the business of *maximizing* these risks.
Yup.

To allow your stuff to be taken with no form of retribution is to become a slave.
A bit dramatic, but I can resonate with the sentiment. I think that this is the feeling that causes the most heartburn for folk - the notion that willingly allowing someone to steal our stuff subjugates us in some fashion (if only to the whims of the Insurance Company).

But again, you are not defending property, you are defending your life.
According to some, you're supposed to flick on the lights and repeatedly ask 'em to leave before considering a non-responsive individual in your house to be a threat. :rolleyes:
 
I would hold fire for trivial, easily replaced property whose absence would not imperil me.

There are times and places when the ABSENCE of certain carefully husbanded property, such as food, shelter, critical tools, and the like would emperil me or my family.

Geek nailed it.
 
Indiana Code.

SECTION 1. IC 35-41-3-2 IS AMENDED TO READ AS FOLLOWS [EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2006]: Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; only and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
(b) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, or curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.


If you're hungry, ask and I'll feed you.
If you break in to feed yourself, hunger will not be your primary concern.
 
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At what point should I be able to use force to stop someone from taking something which is mine - $1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000, more?
You've just illustrated the critical point in this discussion. You can take action to stop a thief, or drive him off, but you cannot kill him -- no matter what the value in question.

But if he attacks you, while you're trying to stop him, you can defend yourself. And, should that require lethal force, never, never, never say you killed him because he was stealing. Say you were reluctantly forced to use lethal force to stop his attack.
 
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