Shoulder holsters and Coopers 4 Rules

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

shotgunkevin

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
181
A couple of weeks ago, two friends and myself went to a fast food place to eat, and 5 plainclothes police officers were in line ahead of us. They were generally dressed in "business casual", with a variety of belt holsters and one shoulder holster amongst them, none of them concealed. We sat down to wait for our food, but a couple of the officers stood by the counter waiting, including the officer with the shoulder holster. From the back of the restaurant, I looked over and saw his Glock muzzle pointed DIRECTLY at my head, carried in his horizontal shoulder holster. I pointed this out to my buddy, who attempted to console me with the safety features of Glock pistols, but I was having none of it! I know, I know, it's nearly impossible for a modern pistol to spontaneously discharge. Frankly, I wasn't really even thinking of it discharging. I just didn't want it pointed at me! So, tactically, I shrank lower and lower into my seat.:uhoh:

So, a couple of questions:
1, Are users of shoulder holsters conscious of where their muzzle is pointing? Do you reposition yourself on account of people being "flashed" by your muzzle?

2, Does anybody else get nervous around people wearing shoulder holsters?
 
I see your point but dont think its a real threat. Personally a ND from a belt holster hitting a hard floor and going god knows where scares me a lot more. I dont worry about shoulder holsters.
 
Cooper's 4 rules exist for guns being handled. Guns almost never just "go off by themselves". They go off when people handle them.
 
If you're going up a flight of stairs wearing a canted belt holster and the gun discharges, the bullet will plug whoever if behind and below you. If you are ever in an apartment that is higher than the first floor, the bullet will go through the flimsy plywood floor and half-inch sheetrock ceiling and plug whoever is in the way downstairs. Same goes for a multi-level home. Ever stand next to a railing on an upper floor? Where does your belt-holstered handgun point when you bend over? Where does your gun point if you leave it on your nightstand at night? What's on the other side of that wall?

Short answer is that you cannot carry without having the muzzle covering someone, sometime, either directly or indirectly.
 
God I hate this topic. Yeah, and don't think about what'll happen when one of those cops with a belt holster bends over to pick up the straw he dropped on the floor. Where is his barrel pointing then?

I agree with Car Knocker's final comment. And, to borrow from Pirates, the 4 Rules are really more like guidelines. Esp when you are talking about a HOLSTERED pistol and not a weapon in someone's hand.
 
Cops don't generally think about their service firearm at all. It's just a piece of kit they're required to lug around. Good guys for the most part, but they're the absolute worst when it comes to firearm safety.
Mind you, in your situation, you really had nothing to worry about. Even if it had been a cocked and locked .45.
 
The rules are not chiseled in stone.

Do you fear parked cars headed at you also?

I see no problem in a horizontal holster. Guns do not fire on their own in their holsters.
 
When I was working on an armored car, I carried a 45 cocked and locked in a shoulder holster while working on ATM's . No jacket, so anyone coming up behind me would see that barrel and everyone else would see the hammer back.

Yes, some of us think about it. A lot of people did not like seeing the hammer back. And guess what, they stayed away from me. Which was all that I wanted.
 
IMO these horizontals do violate the rule. While it can be argued that a pistol can not be discharged all by itself, and rifles are often carried in the horizontal while cased, the fact remains that the muzzle is indeed covering too much, too much of the time, in a loaded ready to fire condition.

Even a hard accidental blow is unlikely to cause the discharge of any commercially made handgun in servicable condition, however, based on the number of recorded accidental discharges while drawing or reholstering handguns the rule certainly applies here IMO. And for this reason I stopped using them. A vertical shoulder holster - including the upside down type - is not good in this respect either; however the risks are minimal if the muzzle is kept under control from draw, sweep to actual presentation.

------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
however the risks are minimal if the muzzle is kept under control from draw, sweep to actual presentation.
Click to expand...

This is one of the major problems with shoulder holsters, IMO. In order to practice drawing and firing from a shoulder holster (which you need to do with *any* carry method if you're going to be reasonably confident of your ability) you often end up sweeping your own weak arm (brachial artery, anyone?). It's hard to practice at a range because you have a problem with sweeping everyone to your weak side. I wonder if the officer you saw is allowed to qualify with his sidearm at the range using that holster? My department doesn't allow shoulder holsters for this very reason.

In the holster, no problem. Drawing and presenting, yeah, BIG problem. :what:
 
Last edited:
I carry in a horizontal shoulder holster from time to time...

one thing about shoulder holsters... once the gun is secured into the holster, there is literally almost NO way anything can get to the gun to make it go off... the thing is pinched in, and the trigger is FULLY covered by the holster on both sides...

it is likely safer than the mini-pancake Galco Jak-Slide I wear 99% of the time... afterall, with not alotta work, I can get a finger into the Galco and pull the trigger, with the gun still in it... it ain't comfortable to do, but I can do it...

I just tried that with my cheap nylon shoulder rig... I'd have to have a finger like a butterknife (very long and very thin) and with about 4 joints in it, capable of bending both ways...

I'd say that the shoulder holster is plenty safe, as long as the gun remains in it, don't worry!
 
Simple answer, No,No and NO!

So, a couple of questions:
1, Are users of shoulder holsters conscious of where their muzzle is pointing? Do you reposition yourself on account of people being "flashed" by your muzzle?

2, Does anybody else get nervous around people wearing shoulder holsters?

I have never thought about where my gun is pointed when in my holster, shoulder or waist. If I'm not playing with the trigger I don't worry about it going off by itself.

I have never been nervous around anyone with a holstered firearm if they are not playing with the trigger. I don't think it will go off by itself.

Really, I just don't think this is something to worry about. It falls in the category of being hit by a meteor.
 
You are such a sissy. IT WAS A GLOCK!!! You could beat it with a rock while it was pointed at your cat and him never lose a whisker! Like everyone keeps saying they have to be pointed somewhere. You don't ever worry about anything you are carrying removing one of your acorns do you?

In any event at your head was quite safe for me since I was the friend consoling you. :D
 
The design or type of holster used has FAR less to do with safety than the mindset of the one carrying. For example, their have been plenty of instances of morons holstering their gun into a belt rig, with their finger on the trigger. Picture that for a moment. As dopey shoves the gun into the holster, the holster compresses is booger hook and BANG, what do you have? A gun grabber's poster child with a hole in his leg :cuss:.

Another example: I heard a story from a Saftey Officer about a guy at a local range a few years ago who was showing off :scrutiny: with his new Ruger P95 and shoulder holster. He was quick drawing it, LOADED, and quite clumsily I might add in a vain effort to impress his friends. Well, he impressed upon the Range/Saftey Officer to kick his sorry stupid butt off the range by drawing his Ruger and slipping his finger onto the trigger as he yanked it out. The Saftey Officer said he heard (and felt) the bullet whiz just inches past his ear :what:.

So I guess in the case of a shoulder rig, if your firing range will let you practice drawing loaded, at least do it at the end of the firing line so you won't cover your fellow shooters.

Use your head and you'll be fine!
 
I suggest those of you dismissing this concern as needless worrying make your posts while someone with ::name your choice of semi-auto handgun:: has the muzzle of his holstered firearm inadvertently pointed at your midsection.
Click to expand...
Just for kicks, I went and got mine and holstered it, put it on the desk in front of me, pointed at my midsection. Funny, it doesn't scare me.
 
Yes, yes, I know it's mechanically safe, I just didn't like looking at the muzzle end of what I knew was a loaded gun, no matter what the make. But I guess everybody else is comfortable with it. Oh well, I'll continue to go about life avoiding having guns pointed at me. :neener:
 
I'd only be worried if he drew or wrapped a hand around the pistol while it was in that holster. Remember the DEA agent? Also, I'd be a lot more worried about a Glock than a SA pistol. All it takes is a finger in the magazine well to discharge it(see dumbass DEA agent). But I dount he'd have a reason to reach for his pistol in that situation.

I really don't understand the irrational fear of a cocked pistol with safety engaged. I don't understand how anyone could be less worried about a ND with a partially cocked pistol with no safety and short trigger travel over a SA with safety engaged.
 
I'm conscious of where mine aims when I sit or lean against something. Walking or standing I don't even think about it.

But I try to keep my horizontal holster at an angle anyways.:eek:
 
Remember the DEA agent? Also, I'd be a lot more worried about a Glock than a SA pistol. All it takes is a finger in the magazine well to discharge it(see dumbass DEA agent).
Click to expand...

I want to know more about this.:scrutiny: Is this the clown in the classroom full of kids who had an AD into his foot?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

O
  • Locked
Do horizontal shoulder holsters violate cooper rule #2?
Replies
7
Views
905
AnthonyRSS
A
C
  • Locked
Shoulder holster rig...
Replies
7
Views
305
chriso
C
S
  • Locked
My First Time Being Uncomfortable Being Around Someone Carrying a Gun
2 3
Replies
64
Views
4K
Robert
Robert
V
  • Locked
Shoulder Holster help, please.
Replies
10
Views
1K
IRONFIST
I
G11354
  • Locked
Shoulder Holsters?
Replies
13
Views
906
WrongHanded
WrongHanded
Back
Top