Side saddle on my 870...TOO HEAVY!

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TCW

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My 20" 870 has a Surefire forend-mounted light and a Choate +3 extension. When fully loaded, the gun is so front-heavy that I can't hold it very steady with my right hand when trying to load from a side saddle with my left.

Is there a secret to this? Tucking the gun into my armpit works okay, but that takes the aim from the target.

I feel like a loading from a butt-cuff with my right hand while supporting the gun with my left (at the forend) would be a better choice. Although, my trigger finger/hand would be moving around, it would allow me to keep on target and keep pressure on the light switch, if need be.

Any similair experiences?

...and yes, I already lift weights :)

TCW
 
You just discovered the downside of accessorizing shotguns.

Everything you put on it adds weight and bulk.
Weight and bulk make the gun slower to swing, and this slows you down.

What makes the shotgun such an effective weapon is the speed at which you can get a load of shot on target.

What you have to do is a "real world" cost-benefit analysis for each accessory.
Is the reduction in speed counterbalanced by the accessory?

In this case, in your real world situation, just how many shells will you REALLY need?
Are you in a situation where the (surviving) Bad Guys will likely run for their lives when you fire a shot or two?

Are you in a situation where you'll likely be facing a mass assault by a biker gang?

Most of the "home defense" guns I'm seeing at the range and on the internet are really "range toys", not real world defense guns.
Most of these have WAY too many shells carried on-board.

I recently saw a shotgun with the following shell storage:
An 8 round magazine extension.
A butt cuff.
A side saddle.
Another side saddle, only this one was attached to the fore arm.
A Speed-feed stock.

This adds up to 30 rounds. The gun weighed so much, the shooter could barely swing it, and once started he had trouble stopping it on target.

My suggestion is to first decide whether you want a range gun or a true HD weapon.

If it's to be an HD gun, do the real world assessment of the probable hazard you'll likely face, then do the cost-benefit analysis for the extra shell storage.

One big advantage of the shotgun is that it can be easily reconfigured when the threat changes.

So while you can counterbalance the extension and light by adding a Speed feed stock and/or a butt cuff, remember, this is going to make the gun heavier and bulkier, with a marked reduction in speed.
 
dfarriswheel is right. I once set up an 870, with an extended mag, a sidesaddle and a leather buttcuff. Fully loaded, it just made you change your mind about carrying it.

It really depends on the mission or duty for the shotgun. For me, I don't really even want a sidesaddle, but if I need to have the ammo handy and don't have ready access to boxes of ammo, it makes them immediately there. Either that or a butt cuff. Definitely not both.

An 870P, with no mag extension or a +1 extension is the handiest, by the way. It's still handy with a full extension, though.
 
i have an 870 express magnum that is completley stock except for the 18.5" cylinder bore barrel, thats my HD gun. Not tactical enough for you? try to break into my house.. i bet you won't be able to tell the difference between 00 buck that comes out of my gun and the 00 buck that comes out of your gun. :neener:
 
I bought a used 870 once and the previous owner had added a mag tube and a sidesaddle. I loaded it up once and had the same problem with weight. I just took the side sadde off and moved it to a different 870, and now they both feel pretty good. I honestly prefer the one with the side saddle because of where the weight is, but the weight on either is fine and they both swing ok.
 
Is there a secret to this? Tucking the gun into my armpit works okay, but that takes the aim from the target.
Click to expand...

Nonethlesss, this is the method taught by Lou Awerbuck and Scott Reitz at the ITTS combat shotgun class we attended in April.

It was pointed out by Uncle Scotty that even the most manly men in LAPD Metro are unable to hold the weapon on target with their shooting hand while reloading.

Meanwhile, since we make a shell holder that mounts to the right side of the receiver, we have been experimenting with a reloading technique in which the weapon is held on target and supported by the weak arm at the forend while reloading with the right hand. No problem supporting the weapon, and very easy to get back into a shooting position with this technique.
 
"Dang. I'm calling on that guy".

No you wouldn't.

The gun was also fitted with:
A bayonet.
A muzzle brake.
An electronic dot sight.
A laser sight.
A heat shield.
And a camo paint job.

He's planning on removing the pistol grip equipped full stock and replacing it with an AR-15 collapsing stock, the very latest "Gotta have it" accessory.
 
a related 870 question

oops. double post. sorry. still learning how to use edit mode.

my real post is the next one.
 
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a related 870 question

You just discovered the downside of accessorizing shotguns.

Everything you put on it adds weight and bulk.
Weight and bulk make the gun slower to swing, and this slows you down.

What makes the shotgun such an effective weapon is the speed at which you can get a load of shot on target.

What you have to do is a "real world" cost-benefit analysis for each accessory.
Is the reduction in speed counterbalanced by the accessory?
Click to expand...
Nicely said, dfarriswheel. Thanks.

Wow, it's my lucky week. Yet another thread on THR that is directly related to an issue that I have. Read on...

So while you can counterbalance the extension and light by adding a Speed feed stock and/or a butt cuff, remember, this is going to make the gun heavier and bulkier, with a marked reduction in speed.
Click to expand...
OK, here's my current quandry in deciding which 870P to buy. (Wow, life is tough, ain't it? :D )

I realize that there are a billion answers to my question, and each one is right for a different person, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. The question is really at the end, but first...

...some relevant data for me: even though i do lift weights :) I'm still a relatively small guy (tall, thin). I don't want a heavy front ended 870. I'd rather have speed & comfort level to get off accurate shots than a heavy gun with extra shots. (I'll take my chances with the fast & few since I'm not expecting any large marauding bands of road warriors to break into my studio ... just yet.)

My local gun shop has an 870P 4461: 18", bead, regular magazine, speedfeed I stock (the one with the extra shell holders). But as I've explained in at least one other thread, I don't want the SF I: shells stored in it reportedly get crimped over time; some report falling out; aesthetically, i don't like the look or feel of the SF I, and would rather add a butt cuff for extra shells).

(Plus, that 4461 has been on that shelf for nearly a month. Seems like no one else wants that stock either, yet at least one salesperson says, "aw, just take it. no difference. you don't have to use it, yada yada yada...")

But, i really want an 870P 4403: 18", bead, regular magazine, speedfeed II (AKA sport or solid stock set).

My gun shop, however, is having trouble so far locating a 4403. (They've got one more call to make on Friday.)

There are, however, 2 4407's available to them: 18", bead, +2 extension, speedfeed II, for about $50 more.

So, unless I get lucky on Friday and they find a 4403, then I've got two choices for now. (I guess I could wait a while for a 4403, but you know what that's like).

1) buy the 4407, remove the +2 extension if I don't like it & replace it with a +1 or just a cap, but why spend the extra $50 when it could be added later, and my cash is a bit tighter right now. (I think I just want to start with a regular magazine. I know, I know, every knowledgable person from Awerback on says, get the extension AND the light, but as a small guy, I want to start light (weight, that is), gain skills, then add stuff.)

Plus, as I've said elsewhere, if front heavy becomes an issue and I've gotta choose between extension & light, my sense right now is, I'd go with a light.

2) I could go with the 4461 the shop has now and just live with the Speedfeed I, or replace it with a solid stock set (but that makes me spend extra $ for a stock I don't want. :(

So, here comes my question that could definitely tip my decision: does anyone know if there's a substantial (i.e., noticable) difference in weight between speedfeed I (hollowed out for shell storage) and II (solid)? My gut-level sense (no data) is that a +2 extension would be better balanced by a solid stock.

Given dfarriswheel's reasonable caveat about over doing the extra shells, and my reservations about the speedfeed stock, I think a more reasonable eventual system would be a solid stock, +2 extension with 1 extra shell, with the possibility of adding a buttcuff for those special future times when marauding road warrior populations increase.

That intuitively, again with no data or trial, seems like a better balance.

As always, thanks in advance for opinions to stimulate my thinking.

NemA~
 
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I removed the side-saddle from my Wilson. The SureFire is still heavy, but you may notice that the extra weight forward tends to pull the butt up to your shoulder very quickly--that's good. A two rd. ext. should be plenty, and downloaded by one still allows 5 rds. to be kept in the mag. tube without stressing out the springs.
 
One of the reasons I advise going slowly on the addons has reared its ugly head on this thread.

A bare bones 18" 870 weighs about 7 lbs and balances at the front of the loading port when empty. When loaded, it moves like a rapier. Adding stuff slows down a fine tool meant to be used under stress and in short time frames. My HD 870 runs 9 lbs or so, but I'm a behemoth and I spend lots of time shooting my 870 TB, which weighs but a few oz less.

Real world crises take place in seconds, sometimes microseconds. I want a fast to use tool for these.

We also get a little frantic about extra ammo on the weapon. In truth, most firefights survived by civilians do not see a standard capacity shotgun emptied. We plan for the exceptions, but the Law of Diminishing Returns applies.

Adding more than 4-5 rounds capacity is overdoing it. And a good hand can keep a 4+1 870 stoked very well indeed. Hardware augments expertise but cannot supplant it....
 
My 20" 870's all wear +3 extensions and sidesaddles. I usually download these guns by two. They are easier to move and I can always top off if I need to. Just because the extension is on the gun does not mean that it has to always be filled to the max, IMHO.
I'd rather carry it light and have a handy bag with extra rounds hanging near the gun.
I took a class where the instructor smugly said that we should be able to hold our guns on target with our trigger hand whilst reloading with the support hand. Of course he was holding an aluminum-framed 18" Mossy at the time.
My wrist was aching by the end of that weekend.
I am looking for an 18" barrel & +2 to test..................
Mike
 
It does crack me up when I see long guns dressed up with all the tactical wonder gear. They weigh a ton, but they sure do look mean. :)

I pick up my HD 870 with +1 extension, forearm light, and butt cuff and it makes my 30" 870 feel like a feather.

I can't imagine adding a side saddle, laser, optics, heat shield, or the ever popular sling/ammution carrier combo.

My back hurts just thinking about it. :D
 
The gun was also fitted with:
A bayonet.
A muzzle brake.
An electronic dot sight.
A laser sight.
A heat shield.
And a camo paint job.
Click to expand...
On a scattergun? :scrutiny: Ok, I stand corrected--I am most assuredly keeping that dude as far away from me as possible, lest he try to "tacti-cool"-ize my stuff :rolleyes:
 
Years ago I picked up a Remington 870 with a 26 inch barrel and the less expensive wood furniture from a pawn shop for $70. Surface rust was the reason for the low price. Over a four year period I added a Mossberg 18" barrel, Choate +2 magazine extension, TacStar light, TacStar sidesaddle and Remington black plastic furniture. I thought about the heat shield but decided the "Look" was not needed. I really wanted a ghost ring sight setup and was looking to send this parts gun off for a set.

As luck would have it a Mossberg 590 was available with all of those goodies in factory trim and I swapped off the 870. Had the Mossberg for almost 4 years now and have developed a problem with it's safety.

Enter stage right a Remington 870P wingmaster with the original LE Only Remington folding stock and Remington magazine extension.

I am putting the old wood stock I kept from that early pawn shop special on this gun and will probably take the mag extension off as well. Becoming an old f@rt I have begun to realize that a short range home defense cannon needs to be fast, light and simple. Getting old will do that to you!

Besides the AR15 with the 2 30 rounders attached is still in the closet for the zombie hords. :D

As for me... there is no secret to the magazine reloads from a butt cuff or sidesaddle. I brought the gun down to the underarm tuck position for reloading. I could still engage from this position and was able to much better stabilize the weapon's weight. Thats one of the reasons I am getting rid of the LEO folding stock. It hurts when I fire the gun and makes administrative or tactical handling a chore. The truly basic 870 with wood furniture, bead sight and a four round magazine is the epitome of "Non-Tactical". A butt cuff with 5 extra rounds is very "PC". If needed and you know how to shoot it the legal beagles will have nothing to latch on to. KISS is my new byword. :)
 
A while ago my department Ninja-ized our 870s. We used to have bare-bones 870s with 18" bbls. They added:

+2 Extension
Speedfeed stock with Pistol Grip and space for four slugs
Surefire fore end
Tactical Sling (which they then removed, not wanting us to use slings)(Don't get me started)

Of these accessories, I'm thoroughly convinced that they should have chucked the +2 extension and the Speedfeed stock, and just gone with the Surefire, a sling, and a butt-cuff for slugs. The +2 extension makes it swing like a 2x4, and the Speedfeed stock has multiple issues:

1. It ejects shells in an inconsitent manner, on a good day. On a bad day you cannot get them out at all, or they fly out under recoil. My department has over 100 of these things, and we see all kinds of failures. In any event, even a good example is finnicky about kicking out the shells. Sometimes they pop right out, sometimes you have to dig at them. All of this slows you down.

2. The LOP is overly long for someone wearing armor, or for anyone not issued with a standard-sized body. Due to the design, you cannot modify it.

3. The butt pad likes to drag on uniform shirts and coats.

4. I have no evidence for this, but I swear that it is slower to mount and operate than a standard stock.

I think a stock 870 is pretty good. Add a Surefire, and you're talking really good. Toss in a quality cuff and 4 slugs or reloads, and you're pretty much perfect.
 
Tactical Sling (which they then removed, not wanting us to use slings)(Don't get me started)
Click to expand...

:what: Sorry to get you started, but does your department advocate grounding your gun to go "hands on," manipulate something requiring two hands or transition to a handgun (or shoot one handed while holding the shotgun). I guess the last alternative is to say "time out; I have to call someone else to help me out?"

I've got the +2, sidesaddle and nylon carrying strap, and I added my own Streamlight Scorpion with an el cheapo gadget that clamps to the extension tube. That balances ok for me at least.
 
I'm a firm believer in the KISS and SIB principals .....Keep It Simple, Stupid, and Simple is Better.

The main advantages or shotguns are two: Speed and adaptability.

In shotguns, speed kills.......the Bad Guys.
Adaptability is the ability for the shotgun to "morph" from one configuration into another when the situation changes.

With that said, my advice to Nematocyst-870 is this:
Buy a gun with the factory extension. The factory extension is about the best on the market.
Later you may well want it, and it's hard to get the factory extension as an accessory.

Also buy a standard old-style magazine cap, magazine spring, and a magazine spring retainer cup-washer when you can.
These old-style magazine assembly items are cheap, and easy to find.

With the factory extension and the standard magazine items, you can change back and forth as needed.

As for the stock, you'd have little problem removing the Speedfeed stock and selling it, then replacing it with a stock of your choice, so I wouldn't let that overly influence my decision.

In that vein, here's a re-post of something I posted early this year on adaptability:............................

There is a wave of accessorizing Home Defense shotguns to the point where they are no longer really effective AS HD shotguns.

What makes a shotgun so effective as a weapon?
The devastating load of shot?
The ease of hitting the target without having to align and aim sights like on a pistol or rifle?
That you don't risk hitting neighbors down the block?
It adaptability?

What really makes the shotgun so effective is the SPEED with which you can do all the above.

A good shotgunner with a properly setup shotgun can blow a threat away, while the threat is still trying to find his safety and align his sights.

A British SAS vet of the Malayan "Emergency" wrote about his first jungle patrol. The patrol leader was armed with an early SAS favorite: A Browning 12 gauge automatic shotgun.

The SAS vet was astounded when the patrol was surprised on a trail by a Chinese messenger, and the shotgunner blew the insurgent away while the highly trained vet was still bringing his FN rifle to his shoulder.

What amazed the SAS vet was the sheer SPEED that the patrol leader had used the Browning.
He heard a loud BOOM, saw the insurgent going down, looked over to the patrol leader, only to see him already inserting another shell into the Brownings magazine.

Where I think we err today is in adding too many "Gee Whiz" and "Hollywood" accessories to HD guns.

I attribute this to the desire to customize our guns, and to the "Cool" factor.

The problem is, when you add ANY accessory to a HD shotgun, you add weight and bulk, and you actually REDUCE the speed of getting that load of shot on target.

What's needed when contemplating adding ANY accessory to a HD gun, is to do a "Real world" cost/benefit analysis:
"If I add THIS to my gun, WHAT do I gain, and does it out weight the LOSS of speed"?

Adding barrel shrouds, bayonet locks, electric sights, folding stocks, AR-15 collapsing stocks, and pistol grip-only stocks adds weight and bulk, reduce the effectiveness, and have little "real world" value on a HD gun.

All these accessories have a place on guns used by military and SWAT guns, but those guns are highly specialized guns intended to be used in military combat operations, or as TOOLS used to break down doors, NOT Home Defense or normal police type situations.

Most of these add-on's add weight, bulk, make the gun clumsy to swing, and reduce the speed of getting shot-on-target.

When doing a HD gun "Real World" analysis, the standard is:
"If I add something to the gun, what exactly do I gain that is worth the loss of speed"?

We'd all like to have a Super Magnum HD gun shooting 3 1/2" Magnum loads of 00 buckshot, but in the "Real World" the recoil and muzzle blast slows the shooter down too much, not to mention reducing magazine capacity.

The cost/benefit is, "The Bad Guy takes a MAJOR hit, but if I need a FAST followup shot, I'm in big trouble".
Real world cost/benefit is: The Super mag is too much for no real gain, so stick with standard 2 3/4" loads.

You should accessorize the HD gun to YOUR "Real world" situation.
Where do you live?
How well constructed is the dwelling?
How many Bad Guys are you REALLY likely to encounter?
How close are the neighbors?
What kind of lighting is present?
How far away are the police?
How's a situation likely to develop?
How are the Bag Guys going to arrive?
What TYPE of Bad Guys am I likely to face?

A few years ago I bought a Remington 870 Police gun.
I bought a standard magazine, synthetic stocked, rifle sighted gun.

I bought the sights because the 870 tends to shoot high for me, and I like to use the sights as a "flash" sight picture pointing aid.

At the time, I lived in a house in a small town. I did a "real world" cost/benefit analysis on the HD situation.

Here's the "real world" analysis:
The house had no neighbors behind or in front.
The neighbors on either side were never home.
The police station was literally 1 block away, and response time for a hot 911 call was 1 to 2 minutes.
There were enough street lights and driveway lights in the area, that there was plenty of light even inside the house.
Trouble would arrive on foot.
There would be no more than 2 Bad Guys and they would run as soon as they knew a gun was there.
A fight would require less than 4 shots.
There was no cover for the Bad Guys.

Based on that, the gun was set up with NO accessories and was loaded with 4 rounds of standard #1 buckshot.

The analysis was, the Bad Guys would walk up to the house in a well lighted area with no cover for them. In these conditions, I didn't need a light.

There were no neighbors to worry about so I could use larger shot, but 00 might be a threat down the block.

The police were seconds away and the local Bad Guys don't stay to fight, so I didn't need a magazine extension.

Last Fall I made a temporary move to a house trailer in the country until a new apartment in another small town was ready.
Since the circumstances had changed, so did the threat, so did the cost/benefit analysis, and so did the gun's set-up.

This situation was:
The trailer was on a farm 10 miles out of a town.
Law enforcement was a MINIMUM of 20 minutes away.
There was NO light.
There were no neighbors for at least 1 mile.
Trouble would arrive in a car or truck.
There was plenty of cover for Bad Guys.
There would be at least 2 Bad Guys.

The gun's set up was changed to a fore arm light, a magazine extension, a butt cuff with spare ammo, a nylon bag with extra ammo was stored with the gun, and the magazine was "Dutch" loaded.

The likely situation was, Bad Guys would drive up in a car or truck.
They would be confronted, and a shoot-out would take place.
They would have the vehicle for cover.
Help would be far away.
There would be no light.
The shoot-out would consume lots of ammo.

The gun's light provided the needed light.
The extended magazine, butt cuff, and bag provided the ammo.
The gun was "Dutch" loaded with the first two rounds being #1 buckshot, since the confrontation would likely start off with everybody away from cover.
The next two rounds would be 00 buckshot to penetrate their cover, and the last two would be slugs to provide range and penetration of a car body as they took cover.

The analysis was the situation would be a fast-changing, extended gunfight from cover requiring a flexible ammo load.

Later last year, the new apartment was ready, and the situation changed again.

Now I'm in a bigger small town with some big city problems.
This is an apartment with walls that are thin.
The area is filled with County Health offices, a drug and alcohol treatment center, assisted living centers, and behind the apartment, a school for handicapped children.
Light is again plentiful, actually almost day-like.
There is a bad neighborhood 1 block away.
Due to that neighborhood, police help is again in the 1 to 2 minute range.
There is limited cover for Bad Guys.
The Bad Guys are window peepers and burglars looking for drug money, NOT a fight.
There will be ONE bad guy.
Trouble will arrive on foot.

Now my gun is set up without any accessories.
There is no need for an extension or extra ammo, since help is fast, and any trouble brings ALL the neighbors out of their apartments to see what's going on.

The Bad Guys are sneaks and runners, not fighters.

There's plenty of light so no on-board light is needed.

The gun is loaded with #4 buckshot for the shorter ranges.

The bottom line is, as the threat changes, the gun changes to meet the BEST GUESS" as to what will be needed.

In "Real world" TRUE HD situations, the "Hollywood" accessories will actually reduce the effectiveness of the gun and would add nothing of any real value.

When contemplating adding an accessory, do a honest cost/benefit analysis and decide if the reduction in speed and effectiveness is offset by any gain.

The best way to do this, is to run the gun through a real combat shotgun course.
Simply taking the gun to the range an blowing off a few rounds at known-distance fixed targets is NOT a true test.

The shotgun is a great HD weapon, but adding items just because they LOOK cool or impress people, will reduce the actual effectiveness.

I guess the bottom line is, when choosing accessories for your HD gun, BE HONEST with yourself.
Do you want a "real" Home Defense gun or a range toy?
Remember that with the "perfect" HD shotgun, Less is More.
====================================================
 
The +2 extension makes it swing like a 2x4..."
Click to expand...
That, along with what 9mmMike & FotoTomas wrote, makes me think twice about the +2. (Or else, I'd better do more standing lateral raises with the dumbells :D)

Still, I hear the argument about downloading by one or two under 'normal' conditions. I guess it could be nice to have the extra capacity in those rare emergencies. Still, I wonder if pressing in the extra 2 during said 'emergency' could be a bad idea if you're used to shooting it lighter. (Ah, the adventure of it all; surely adrenaline would make up for the extra weight... :eek: )

I have no evidence for this, but I swear that it is slower to mount and operate than a standard stock.
Click to expand...
I've noticed that while trying out guns with an R3 pad in the store: even with a light-weight summer shirt on, and even with the shorter stock on the 870P (v. the express), the pad still tends to hang up on my shirt, significantly slowing the mount.

Oh, mama, please don't make me by a 12 ga without a recoil pad. :uhoh:
That's actually another reason I don't want a Speedfeed I stock: i think the solid one will be easier to shorten a tiny bit should it come to that (to keep that R3).

NemA~
 
(dfariswheel wrote) ...my advice to Nematocyst-870 is this:
Buy a gun with the factory extension. The factory extension is about the best on the market. Later you may well want it, and it's hard to get the factory extension as an accessory.

Also buy a standard old-style magazine cap, magazine spring, and a magazine spring retainer cup-washer when you can. These old-style magazine assembly items are cheap, and easy to find.

With the factory extension and the standard magazine items, you can change back and forth as needed.
Click to expand...
More good advice. Thanks. Good point re the factory extension being a good one and hard to get. Interestingly, another forum member contacted me off list and offered to swop out the speedfeed I for a speedfeed solid that he has laying around.

Ah, a clear decision is beginning to emerge from the fog. Life is good. :eek:

Also, nice description of cost/benefit analysis for specific situations. Well done, mate.

NemA~
 
Tactical Sling (which they then removed, not wanting us to use slings)(Don't get me started)
Click to expand...
Sorry to get you started, but does your department advocate grounding your gun to go "hands on," manipulate something requiring two hands or transition to a handgun (or shoot one handed while holding the shotgun). I guess the last alternative is to say "time out; I have to call someone else to help me out?"
Click to expand...
Sorry, my bad. most (not all!) of the Ninjaguns have slings, just not tactical slings. They're inexplicably OK with us walking around with the guns slung, just not in a 3-point sling. I, for one, don't see the need for a Tacticool sling for a patrol officers, but I also don't see the harm...and once you've gone out and purchased the darned things, it seems a waste not to use them.

Mike
 
My 18.5" Tactical 870 has a side saddle, Remington +2 extension , Surefire Foreend, Hogue 12" stock Vang safety,follower and Vang choke with no ports. It has a black Robar finish and some custom fold down winged rear sight and a square post front,very low.It is an early magnum reciever completely refurbished. I use the techniques MesaTactical related. With the 12" stock it is VERY front heavy.This keeps the muzzle rise down and has a good swing for an 18" barrel. It weighs about 8.5 pounds fully loaded (side saddle full) and single point Mout sling on it's GG&G adapter. That weight keeps 200 round strings tolerable. I have gone to Remington Reduced Recoil slugs only in and on gun. Very fast & :D deadly to 100 meters!
 
The SAS vet was astounded when the patrol was surprised on a trail by a Chinese messenger, and the shotgunner blew the insurgent away while the highly trained vet was still bringing his FN rifle to his shoulder.
Click to expand...

Don't shoot the messenger!!!
 
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